The 5 Pillars to Respectfully Disagree Your Way to Stronger Connections || with Justin Jones-Fosu

Ever feel like we're all walking around with unspoken truths weighing us down, especially in our closest relationships? In this episode with Justin Jones-Fosu we unpack the tricky ways we avoid hard conversations, often thinking we're preserving harmony, but ultimately creating deeper divides and a sense of isolation. Justin's openness about his own journey really sets the stage for a truly vulnerable exploration of connection and disconnection.

This conversation isn't about offering easy answers; it's about acknowledging the complexities of being human and relating to one another authentically. If you're craving a deeper understanding of why genuine connection can feel so challenging and how we might begin to bridge those gaps, then join us. This is an episode that will resonate long after you've finished listening.

Related episodes: https://www.aboutprogress.com/blog/keys-to-overcoming-conflict-and-healing-connection-for-couples; https://www.aboutprogress.com/blog/how-to-navigate-hard-and-sometimes-political-conversations-with-people-you-dont-agree-with-with-julie-rose 

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TRANSCRIPT

Monica Packer: Justin Jones-Fosu, welcome to About Progress.

Justin Jones-Fosu: Woo. I'm ready to make about progress.

Monica Packer: You've already made it and you've made my day in more ways than one. We're gonna be talking about some complicated things today, but in ways that I think are going to open us up for so much more in our lives and primarily within our relationships. You know, we are dealing with such a divisive world right now, and I think one of the things we tend to do within our relationships when we're not really agreeing with those who are closest to us, whether it's within our own homes or our neighborhoods or our communities, or our churches or our schools, is we kind of repress how we feel.

We avoid the hard topics because we don't want to disagree, and I wanted to hear from you how. Preserving in quotes, a relationship in that way is actually doing it no favors, and it's making us lonely, even lonelier

Justin Jones-Fosu: [00:01:00] Yeah. Wow. That's a huge question.

Monica Packer: it is.

Justin Jones-Fosu: I'd love to answer it and tell in story form because for me, a lot of this I didn't realize came from my own inadequate relationship and my own loneliness as relates to my dad. And I remember my parents divorced when I was four years old. I initially saw my dad every other weekend, and then it became one weekend a month. And then sometimes I didn't see and or hear from my dad for two or three years.

And when I was younger, you know, it didn't bother me as much. I knew there was something different, but you know, it was a two and a half hour journey to, to my dad's and I was just trying to, you know, build relationships at my school and go skating and all those things. But when I got older, and I remember I was living in Mississippi at the time and I just pull over to the side of the road. I was in my, like young thirties at the time, and I was just, I just started weeping. Almost literally uncontrollably.

Monica Packer: Huh.

Justin Jones-Fosu: And because I felt like I had, I had missed something, I had lost [00:02:00] out on something. Now, what I'm not saying is just because somebody grew up with both of their parents, that they lived a perfect life because I, I've also heard those stories. For me, I felt like I missed something. So I wanted to go confront my dad in 2019 will Smith style now, not the Chris Rock version but if for your listeners, and if you remember like the will, the fresh Prince of Bel Air version right where,

you know, his dad came back into his life and he was super excited to go on a road with his dad, and he's like, I'm awesome. And then unfortunately, his dad did what his dad did. He left without telling Will. And Will's like, it's cool, you know, he was talking to Uncle Phil, he is like, I'm gonna get married without him, have kids without him. And he fell into Uncle Phil's arms. And an unscripted moment in that show. Most people don't know. And he asked Why didn't he love me? And so that's what I was gonna do. I was gonna go ask my dad, why didn't he love me? Why didn't he fight for me? But because of a really good therapist and a great leadership Charlotte cohort they challenged me to, instead of going to confront my dad to going in, hearing his story. And as I went to hear his story, [00:03:00] I asked more questions than I actually, without knowing the steps of the, the five pillars that we wrote about and then researched. I followed the five pillars and, and it wasn't like I was trying to, you know, create the pillars for this conversation 'cause I wasn't even thinking about the book.

It was really about confronting my own issues, my own loneliness, because I, I, I grew up male anemic. I didn't, never met either of my grandfathers didn't have a solid relationship with my dad. And so for me there was just this always yearning, searching, right? And still stuff that still impacts me today. I still talk to my therapist about, but in confronting my dad and actually choosing to hear his story, it allowed me to. Choose to forgive him, not because he asked me to, but because I chose to lean into that disagreement of our relationship and I and that forgiveness. What I didn't realize, I was holding back a whole aspect of my [00:04:00] heritage that I didn't even realize I had been doing. And it was like a n aspect of me. 'cause my dad's from Ghana and my mom's from America. And I realized in that moment. How many other, not just myself, but how many other people are actually holding themselves back because of unresolved disagreements or unresolved issues with people in their lives that they haven't addressed yet. And I became on a mission to really begin to respectfully addressing these issues with people in ways that honored by self, but also honored them in the, in the same, same token.

Monica Packer: Well, it doesn't sound easy, that's for sure. Thank you for starting with that and how it led so much of what you do and how you help people. I'm curious what you see people resist

when they hear your story or just even this idea about I. Self confrontation, but like confronting others about these hard things.

Like what do they [00:05:00] resist about that? How do they dismiss themselves from the, from that, even potential

Justin Jones-Fosu: Well, a lot of times people don't know where to start.

And that's the biggest thing is that we all, we create this narrative in my mind about, oh, I can never have that conversation.

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

Justin Jones-Fosu: Like, I'm glad you were able to, but no, I, I couldn't. And I always tell people, right, like, the first place for me to starting isn't actually with the person, it's with myself. , I'm a big advocate of therapy. I, I speak all over the world and every time I get a chance to, I share on the stage in front of people on podcast that not only do I value therapy, I still go to therapy. And I, I don't go to therapy because there's something wrong with me, even though my kids might say something different. But I go to therapy because I wanna keep things going right. And it's, that's been the first place because outside of being challenged by my therapist and even my leadership Charlotte cohort I wouldn't have gone to hear my dad's story. I would've just gone to tell him off

[00:06:00] and to express my anger my rage. I struggled with father's days. I, I, because I didn't wanna do the, the fake card, right. Of just like, thank you for being a great dad. Right? Like, no, I was like, I would like send an email, like, thank you for being a part of my birth. Like, I mean, I'm not joking, I mean, I'm being serious

because I wanted to say Happy Father's Day, but I didn't want to give him a false sense of like, I, that you were there for me.

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

Justin Jones-Fosu: I didn't realize it was impacting me more than it was probably impacting him. And the therapy sessions were the great place for me to start. And whether that's, you know, I'm a big believer in trained therapist, but whether that's, you know, people's pastors, whether that's people's identifying therapy, whether that's, you know, video or in person that's been a really great place for me to begin to excuse the pillar.

One is to challenge my perspective. And that's been the best part for me of helping people in that resistance of starting there, doing some of that self work, right? Whether it's reading books, listening to this podcast, [00:07:00] getting therapy. But that's been the best part for me, and that's also the starting place for people.

It's not the conversation,

it's beginning the process. How you are processing this information?

Monica Packer: Yeah, I think we're all guilty of just jumping ahead to this potential conversation and coming up with our talking points and even our potential comebacks and how we're gonna respond to certain things when really it comes back to yourself first.

So with this, What kinds of conflict styles do you see people are holding onto when they're thinking about these kind of conversations?

Justin Jones-Fosu: yeah. Well, I think that there are, there are places, right? I. Take a step back for a moment because we talked about these four responses of conversational conflict, and I initially went to solve it for myself because I, I am you know, a disrespectful disagree, right? For the most part, right? There's different scenarios, right, where it's, you know, a cut you off, you're wrong.

That's dumb. Even if I don't say it out loud, I'm thinking it right? And so I [00:08:00] wanted to help myself. Then others get to more respectful disagreement. I'm like, I didn't realize it was a whole nother category called disrespectful agreement. As we begin diving into the research and disrespectful agreement might happen in a sense where on one side, I, you know, we could be in a meeting together and you know, we could be meeting with, you know, say Sarah, and, and I'm talking to you and you give a great idea.

And I'm like, oh, that's awesome, Monica. Thank you for sharing that idea. And then behind your back, I'm talking to Sarah like. What in the world was she saying? Like, I don't, I don't know why she would even think that, or, or, you know, you could have

come over to the house for tea and I, and I'd be like, oh man, that's a great idea, Monica, that I go around the block to my house.

I'm like, Ooh, I don't know. I dunno. Why was Monica saying that? Right? So that's one aspect where a person will agree with you in person. Disagree behind your back. And as a person who spent quite a few, quite a bit of time in the south, I find that to sometimes be very prevalent. And actually still live in the south. But I've also seen on the other side [00:09:00] where you might have grown up in a society, a culture, a family where you were taught that children should be seen and not heard,

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

Justin Jones-Fosu: and then you carry that into adulthood. And so you avoid conflict at all times because

you might've seen it in either very challenging, violent, or verbally and or sometimes physically ways, or you might've also not seen it because the parents took it behind closed doors, so you never got a opportunity to see what healthy conflict looked like. Or you may have seen great examples, right? We've had people in our research or more of our qualitative research that have run the gamut, and I wanted to begin to also help people address that aspect of

disrespectful agreement because even though they may agree sometimes in their silence, they're disrespecting themselves in the process.

So that's where I didn't know that I would stumble upon [00:10:00] this aspect to help people spend more time and respectful disagreement, which respect is not just for the person, it's also for oneself.

Monica Packer: Okay. So as they're thinking about, oh, whoops, this is, this is how I've seen conflict. I either like face it, head on, maybe in ways that actually aren't ultimately healthy.

For different reasons. Maybe I avoid at all costs. Maybe I pretend I'm agreeing when I'm really, I'm not, and that's bad for everybody. Okay. Why does, why does identifying that matter in terms of seeing that disagreement actually can lead to more connection? Like, 'cause I think that's another part of the resistance piece is then thinking like, well, if I disagree, then I'm gonna damage the relationship.

Well, no. How, how in your experience and, and, and your professional experience and your personal experience has actually been the opposite. Disagreement leads to connection

Justin Jones-Fosu: yeah. Well, I had to first realize, and this is just part of my own self work, and I wanna ask you the same question, Monica, who are the only people that you and I can control?

Monica Packer: ourselves.

Justin Jones-Fosu: It's our [00:11:00] kids. And so the intro, no, I'm joking. I tried, I tried. It didn't work right. All four of mine, it did not work. I don't know how this dismissed me, right? But, but ourselves, right? And, and I had to realize that I had to show up for Justin in healthy ways without overthinking how the person would respond. And that became meaningful for me. Now it's still, there's still things where I process and, and it bothers me and I deal with it. But it, and sometimes it's very scary, right?

So I, I recently actually had about three weeks ago, had to have a tough conversation with someone and I didn't want to have it.

You know, they were saying some things through text, which is one of the worst forms of sharing disagreement. And I, you know, I know that I, I know this work. And so I began sending voice notes because I know in hearing voice you can get tone, but they weren't getting the hint. And so I had to shut down the conversation and say, Hey, this is, this is not being, this is not [00:12:00] healthy. And I was at, I was at the point where. I was either going to, remove myself from this relationship, or we were gonna have this tough conversation and I was like, you know what? The brave thing is to have this tough conversation. And as we, you know, had the conversation and we set, you know, did all the stuff that I've researched in terms of setting guidelines, having a neutral place for conversation listening deeply. , but we actually are more connected now. Then I would've ever thought, because as we dug into it, we came to this the table of like, Hey, we're here because we both love each other, right? And even though we might see this thing very differently, which we actually didn't see very differently, but it, we made it a bigger deal because of through text and all these things. And because we went through that tough moment, we were actually deeply more deeply connected. And this is one of the things I often say, I don't consider somebody a friend. I. True friend, until we've [00:13:00] gone through something. No longer wanted to be friends, but still remain friends because it's easy to be friendly when everything is great and everything is good and there's no conflict and you just, but it's harder to have that conversation to come out on the other side.

And one of the things I feel like is that we are more deeply connected now than ever before, and that's. That's what I realized that we often are afraid of. I was afraid of like, what's gonna happen with this relationship? But I had to be okay to say, I can't just allow this to be in the back of my mind.

Every time we interact, we engage and not address it because it actually would've hurt the relationship and it caused me more stress in the process. And so that's been one way that. Kind of leaning into that disagreement actually has helped us to be more connected. And we're actually, we we're, based on the issue we are dealing with, we're gonna go to a workshop together to kind of get more information and hear about it.

And so, I'm living this stuff out too, right? It's not just stuff that I researched and studied I struggle with it. But [00:14:00] it's about progress.

Monica Packer: I see what you did there. I actually love learning from people who aren't like, I do this perfect all the time, or it's so easy for me. I love learning from people who are like, Hey, this is gonna be messy

and nuanced, and whatever I share with you isn't meant to be like a blanket. Prescription of what you're supposed

Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah.

Monica Packer: So that's what you're clearly doing so well, I I, before we get more into the guidelines

for them, those pillars that you mentioned, which I think I already know, they're not gonna be like, here's exactly how you start a sentences, here's how you end the conversation.

Justin Jones-Fosu: not at

Monica Packer: be prescriptive, it's gonna be more like, you know, deep.

I do have to ask this first. Like, is the goal of this to be connected to everyone about everything or. Is it wise to start from a place where you know, you don't have to do these kind of hard conversations that actually can lead to more connection with everyone about everything? How do they differentiate, I guess is what I'm asking?[00:15:00]

Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah, so it's, for me, it's not about everyone with everything, right? Because there are some disagreements that, you know, for some, for some of us, we feel compelled to share our ideas or thoughts about everything. And at first, tell people, like, you have to identify, is this even worth it for you to share?

Right? Do you feel you have to disagree, right? Because you don't always, right? There's many times people have shared some things with me. And I completely disagree, but I listen, I dig in deeper, I, all these kind of things

and I'm like, oh wow. Thank you for sharing and that's it. Right?

And I don't have to go into, well, I actually don't practice Pilates and I do like, no, like it's just, but we sometimes feel the need to. Almost convince others why we're doing something that they also need to be convinced. Right. I was having a conversation with one of my friends today about, you know, the Peloton and working out and she shared that she, you know, was not, you know, she's left the gym is doing the Peloton full-time. She has the bike, the [00:16:00] rower, the tread, all that kind of stuff.

I just have the Peloton and. One of the things that it felt, it felt like, and I could be wrong, right, but it felt like she was trying to convince me like why the gym is no longer good. Right? And I'm like, I love the gym, right? And I love my Peloton. But she showed me her perfect streak where she had done like 84 weeks in a

row

Monica Packer: exactly what you're talking about 'cause I have the Peloton app, you know, on my, my cheap Amazon bike, but yes, I know, I know the

Justin Jones-Fosu: yes. yes. So I have like, I have like, that's like my coach only has me doing it like once or twice a week. So I'm like, I won't have that streak 'cause you like your coach. I was like, yeah, you know, I do some aspect of like natural bodybuilding. And one of the things I shared with her, I was like, you know what, I, I love that you found something that really works for you. And that was it. Right? I didn't have to convince her why I still go to the gym or even though I felt she was trying to convince me.

Well, I thought, right, again, I could be wrong, but I didn't have to go into it. Well, I actually go to the gym because of the, what I do with my muscles and protein and blah blah. Like, no, like, you know, it was just like listening [00:17:00] to her story, engaging and then saying, you know, I didn't need to address that. So on the other hand, there are some issues. That we do need to address and like, to your point, there's no like

perfect, you know, descriptor of when to address it or when not to address it. I know if there's something that really continues to bother you, it, it probably is something that's worth addressing first with yourself and people that you might trust to say how, like how am I processing this is a process in healthy ways for me that's been a therapist. Sometimes it's friends that you know, are willing to challenge me. And then also realizing that they're also. Free to disagree with me and that I might have perceived it wrong and I might have gotten it wrong. And so it's never to, , influence people to my side, right? That that's not the purpose of respectful disagreement. It's to have honest conversations that allow for vulnerability, allow for deep listening, and allow for that person to be heard and valued as well as [00:18:00] myself to be heard and valued. I don't control them, Monica. I can only choose how I show up. And I have that resolve in my head about like, Hey, they may take this left. And I still want to practice the principles that I think will allow them to feel heard and valued, even if they don't necessarily reciprocate it in the same moment.

And so it's not about everyone, about everything but it is about identifying like, hey, who, who, who really matters to me in life? And. With this friend. I wanted to, you know, not the exercise friend, but the friend I had to meet with. I value him, you know, we would get together monthly, you know, we would talk about our issues, you know, this is three of us. And I was like, I. This, this conversation matters. And so I decided to have the conversation. And so yes, it's not about every, everyone with everything at all the times, but it is about making those decisions about things that are really impacting you. And it, it did impact me. It was causing me stress.

And

so it needed to happen.

Monica Packer: No, that [00:19:00] helps. That helps get clarity, I think. And I, and just as you shared, I think it's, you know, you can feel it in your body

too. I mean, not to get super woo, I don't even, I'm not even that kind of person traditionally, but but I do feel like there's something to say for that. Like when you feel like if I'm carrying something around for so long, or even like for a couple days or whatever, like that seems like the thing and the person that matters to even be willing to be open.

Justin Jones-Fosu: Hundred percent. And if it still bothers me, right? Because at the end of the day, and everybody's different, right? Some people carry things very differently, like. For me, one of the things is I often will go to sleep and forget, like stuff happened.

Monica Packer: Yeah,

Justin Jones-Fosu: Like, and I will be good right the next day and I won't bother me.

I, I'm not

like sweeping under the rug and like secretly thinking about it. I'm like, I'm really good. But when I wake up and I'm still processing it and it's still bothering me and I'm still trying to figure out ways. I, I, I need to address something either with myself or with that person, or a combination of the two. And so, I, I agree with [00:20:00] you. I do think, you know, how we process is vastly different, but we all know like when something's really bothering us.

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm. Well, let's talk more about the, how you've already mentioned, what, what do you call it, your five pillars? I feel like I'm missing a word.

Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah. Five, five pillars of respectful disagreement.

right.

We used to call five pillars of bridging the divide

because we often found this as divides within our disagreements. But these are just ways to respectfully disagree with people. And pillar number one is challenge your perspective.

And it's interesting 'cause we, I did my own kind of, you know, deep dive red hundred and one articles in about a year's timeframe, you know, from certain dates to dates from January 1st, 2024 to January 15th, 2025. And I began asking like, what are all the common things that everybody's saying about conflict resolution, having tough conversations, da, da, da, and what's the one thing missing? And Monica, the one thing missing was this very big thing that we talked about it in pillar number one is [00:21:00] challenge your perspective

because most articles deal with when you're having the argument, what do you do? When you're having the disagreement, what do you do

rather than, what do you do before any disagreement even occurs?

Monica Packer: Okay.

Justin Jones-Fosu: Right? There was some articles that kind of hinted to it, but none that just Right. Went into it. Like this is, and this is one of the things we think is the most foundational aspect of what we do, is how do we challenge our perspective and so do we put ourselves in situations intentionally, environments that are different than what we believe. Different than what we hold to be true to ourselves. And I realized I got that from my mom. Like my mom, you know, I'm a mama's boy in all the best waves of it, but like I remember growing up and we didn't have a lot of money, but my mom would make sure we went to events that were different. We went to October Fest and Polish festivals and the first people's powwows and, and hisp Hispanic Heritage Month events and all these things.

We brought in exchange students from France and Germany and Japan and, and, [00:22:00] and all these things. We didn't have a lot of money. I. And my mom would even make us go to events that we disagreed with. And I'd be sitting in audience like, mom, we don't even agree with this. Why are we here?

Right? But I didn't realize that she was planting these seeds of humanity,

that even in the midst of our disagreements of people who think differently, vote differently, go to different rallies, all these things, that there's still humanity there.

And I didn't realize. I was not living up to my mom's ideals because I remember interviewing my mom for my last two books and I was like, mom, like where did you get this whole philosophy from? I thought I was smart. And I realized it really just came from my mom. Right.

And my mom shared a powerful story with me that I'll share with you. My mom was one of the first black female air traffic controllers in the Air Force, and she was sometimes be stationed in Japan. She shared, and there were some soldiers in that same two year timeframe that never left base.

She was like, Justin, I never want you to be like that

and never leave your metaphorical home base and [00:23:00] not get to experience the beauty of people and cultures around you.

And so challenging perspective has become a big piece. And why is this important? It's important because. If we never challenge our perspective, we're not building up those muscles in those moments. We actually do have those disagreements to hear views that are different than ours sometimes slightly or drastically, right?

, social media has conditioned our algorithms to flow with things that agree with us, that like us, and things that we like or post or different things, right? So we continue to get what we often call the echo chamber of people like us, and that was Justin. And so I realized I was conforming myself to. What I call my circles of comfort. People who look like me, thought like me, believe like me, and I realized I was not living up to my mom's ideals. And so I created this concept called the Circles of Grace Challenge, and this is a strategy to lean into the challenge and perspective. So Circles of Grace Challenge is simply this. Every six to 12 months I go to events, experiences, or engage [00:24:00] with people in either, which I don't know a lot about and or I disagree with. I go asking two questions. What did I learn about this event? Experience this in a person, and what did I learn about myself as I experienced them? And that intentionality has helped build the muscles up where I'm consistently hearing views that I either didn't know or I've gotten wrong, or that I still disagree with, but I've gotten the humanity firsthand, perspective from it. And so that's, that's the essence of pillar number one.

Monica Packer: I wanna take that challenge. That is really cool, and I love that that came from your mom and her own lived experiences and what she wanted to instill in you as her child. So good job, mom.

Justin Jones-Fosu: Thank you, mom. I shout out to all the moms that are working their butts off, whether in the home, outside the home,

both because it is those small things that you don't even realize. So it's challenged me of like, oh, Justin, are you taking your kids?

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

Justin Jones-Fosu: they disagree with that you

disagree with.

You taking them to hear [00:25:00] perspectives that are, and so it's been very encouraging,

Monica Packer: Yeah. Okay. You're making me think about some things I've been doing as mom, like, just don't talk about this thing to this person at this, at this family event. Like, don't bring up that thing. Like, but okay. May. Yeah. We gotta do some learning there. Okay. So let's talk about the second pillar.

Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah. Pillar number two is be the

student and it's we're we focus more on listening and learning rather than being a lecturer. And,

What I love about learning, if we adopt this process, I, I love Carol Dweck's work, work on mindset. And the growth mindset being such a huge aspect of just failure is a part of our, just another data point of learning and all these places, right?

Or just we learn and we don't have to be compared to other people. And, and so the pillar number two is where we choose to be a student. And so when you're in a disagreement, go into it asking, what can I learn

about what this person is sharing and or even what can I learn about this person's story about how they got there?

Monica Packer: Got it.[00:26:00]

Justin Jones-Fosu: Right? And when we adopt that, and just really fascinating research on learning and this, this is a process, a theory called the Inverted You Theory. And it's just there's two points where we don't learn effectively. Number one, when we think we know absolutely nothing. And what do you think the other point is?

Monica Packer: We think we know it all.

Justin Jones-Fosu: A hundred percent. And that's often masking our lack of confidence in things at times, is that we have to overcompensate. Right? I've often said that I used to spend so much time trying to prove my worth, that I lost opportunities of simply being my worth and. Learning. It's like, oh, tell me more about that.

Or How did you

get there? Or, you know, what's been your story? And that's, that's one of the things with my buddy that I had to do. It's like I realized like I never really heard his history and how he got to this point of about making this decision or why he values this.

And so I chose to be a student,

right?

So instead of going and saying, Hey, I'm gonna tell you why you're wrong. I'm gonna tell you all the things that are off. I'm gonna tell you all. I was like, Hey, I realize I've never heard your story about this. And that's the same thing I did with my [00:27:00] dad. Right as I sat down and I was like, I'm gonna be a student. I'm not just gonna tell him I'm mad, I'm angry, I'm upset. I can't believe he did that. He wasn't there for me. I was like, dad, I realize I've never heard your story. I'd love to hear your story. And that's one way that we can lean in and being a student, but we have to intentionally create these spaces to be a student.

Lemme give you one practical way we can be a student. I'm a big strategy person, and it's only math we'll do today. It's called one mc over W. Now one, what one mc over w stands for is one meaningful connection per week,

all right? Where we intentionally build into our calendars, 15 to 20 minutes to have a meaningful conversation with somebody.

People we know, people we don't know, and people in our neighborhoods, people that as we're, you know, walking our kids or pets down the street, right? Like all these things. And, choosing to have that. If you're like, oh, that's too much. I already have too much to do, Justin, my toddler's not sleeping. I can't believe.

Right? But flip the W upside down and make it one meaningful connection per month. And maybe it's one [00:28:00] lunch a month, but it, the purpose of it has to be intentional. And I want us to be careful that we don't just choose to have lunch and have conversations that are meaningful with our neighbors and other things that we like agree with. You know, we know that there's this deep

connection. But also have the conversations with people that we don't know. That we don't, we may see that sign in their yard that may, Ooh, how would they do that? Right. Or, you know, they may have a different parenting style than we do. Right. And we can see it on display. Because it helps us to better learn, to better understand, to hear the journey and perspective of others. And, and that's one way that we can really lean into being better students of people. But in the disagreement, it's choosing to learn something new. And so I go into it and don't always succeed at this, but I

go into it asking the question, what can I learn about what they're sharing and or what can I learn about their story of how they got

to what they're sharing? I. So that's, [00:29:00] that's pillar number two.

Monica Packer: Yeah. I see how the first two are so connected, but also different. What a, what's the third pillar?

Justin Jones-Fosu: Pillar number three is cultivate your curiosity. And it's where we fill in the gaps with curiosity rather than conclusions.

1. And, you know, one of the things that we've often done, you know, the saying Curiosity killed the cat. First of all, we shouldn't be killing cats, but just to be, I'm even, I'm a dog lover, but I, I still love cats. But we, we often say curiosity and kill cat. The Cat conclusions did.

Monica Packer: Oh

Justin Jones-Fosu: we often fill in the gaps with what we think we know,

rather than being more curious, asking

Monica Packer: what we think the other person is gonna say or what they believe.

Justin Jones-Fosu: Yes, we we do the dotted line dilemma, right? And, and our brains, right? And so I share this with people 'cause people think there's something wrong with them. No, our brains actually work against us in this place because our brains wanna conserve energy for things that thinks it doesn't know, right? And so what it does is that when it gets information, whether second or third hand [00:30:00] information, news, social media, other people, it collects them and categorizes them for future use. That's the efficiency of our brain. What the challenge is, is that sometimes it pulls that moment where it's that one data point and you think that because all people with red sweaters, you know, cut you off. Now you see a red sweater and you're automatically triggered, this person's gonna cut me off, and so I need to protect myself. Right. And also, it's a benign example, but that is real. We call it's, it's called the DOT aligned dilemma.

Is that we start filling in the gaps with the next dot that we think is gonna exist based upon the information we've already taken in. And, and, and it's like this. And I, I want you to do this, but I want all those who are listening to do the same thing. I want you to answer quickly. Don't think about it. What's the correct side of the road to drive on? Go.

Monica Packer: Right.

Justin Jones-Fosu: Yes, absolutely. Except when you're Australia or Jamaica or uk. And it's because our context shapes what we experience and see,

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

Justin Jones-Fosu: And so I've had people who literally could not answer initially because they've actually lived in both [00:31:00] places.

Monica Packer: Got it. Yeah.

Uhhuh.

Justin Jones-Fosu: And so that's part of our curiosity. The first, the question comes back is what country are you in? Right? And that helps us to better understand your people's perspective. So lemme give you one practical way to lean into being more curious. Right? And I love, Julia mention's work on this 'cause she's like, we know we should be more curious.

We didn't stop telling people. Just be more curious. What are the behaviors of curiosity that help us?

Monica Packer: Okay.

Justin Jones-Fosu: are the things to lean into. So one way is what we call the power of three, and it's challenging what we call a double Dutch dial communication and double Dutch. For those who don't know, it's more than just one single jump rope.

It's two ropes going like this, but there's somebody waiting to jump in like this or waiting to jump in, waiting to jump in, and that's how we communicate. Monica.

Waiting to jump in, like take a breath so I can share my perspective. I can tell you why you're wrong. I can tell you my, what my journey was through this, rather than listening deeply to the power of three and the power of three.

Simply this. I say, Monica, how's your day today? You're like, oh, my day's fine. Like, oh, Monica, my day's [00:32:00] fine too. It's power of one. Power of two is. Monica, how's your day? Oh, my day's fine. Well, what makes your day fine? I heard this interesting Baldhead beak. I know that Baldhead Beaker, that's power of two,

right?

Monica Packer: Got it. Mm-hmm.

Justin Jones-Fosu: Power of three is where I take it a step further. Oh, what'd you learn? What made, what made him interesting?

Monica Packer: Hmm.

Justin Jones-Fosu: Oh, we talked about circles of grace Challenge talked about what? Meaningful connection per week.

Oh wow. Is there anything else I can learn? But what we often do is that we, we, we found in our research, people often lean to the power of one or power of two because they can't wait to get it back to themselves.

Not because. They're narcissists, not because they're self-absorbed, they're trying to make connections,

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

Justin Jones-Fosu: But we have to be very careful in our desire authentically to make connections. We started taking control. And so when people are sharing their story, their perspective, or their viewpoint, instead of us automatically filling in the gaps with that con, with that conclusion, let's turn to curiosity.

Let's listen more deeply and challenge our double Dutch style of communication because we [00:33:00] might find that we're actually not even talking about the same thing. And that's what we and my buddy found in our conversation. I was like. I was like, we absolutely agree on this. I was like, we're approaching it from two different perspectives.

Right. But I wouldn't have found that out until I chose to not only

challenge my perspective earlier, be the

student that I learn, but now cultivate my curiosity. And I asked more questions and, and dug in deeper. And so, that allowed us to have a deeper, more meaningful conversation.

Monica Packer: Love that. Power of three, three questions deep, at least.

Justin Jones-Fosu: At least.

Monica Packer: What's the fourth pillar?

Justin Jones-Fosu: Pillar number four is to seek the gray. And when you seek the gray, it's about finding what I call common ground.

And common ground is not middle ground. I wanna be very careful. Middle ground implies 50 50. It's like that's why I don't believe in work-life balance

because there really is no balance. It's a blend. And common ground could be 60 40, 70, 30, 95, 5. It could just be that person's a human being that's [00:34:00] worthy of dignity, value, and respect.

Monica Packer: Got

Justin Jones-Fosu: And give you a big issue to kind of highlight this. We talking about gun rights or gun control, right? So instead of diving into conversations around, you're stupid, why don't you have a gun?

Oh, why do you have a gun? Right? I think that's unsafe. Da da da. I think what if we like, you know what? I'm really glad we both really care about the safety of our families. That's a common ground place that shows that you're willing to operate in that space of gray rather than the black and white that we often. Trained to see very binary zero one. Even in my book, what most people don't know, if you look at the cover, most people don't know until I tell them. It's a very thin line of gray between the black and white. And that's very intentional because we often don't see it.

And so when you stick the gray, that common ground, you ask, what is C? It helps us to better understand and connect to the person. That's what I had to do with my dad, right? I had, I still disagreed with the outcome. I better understood how he got there and I realized my dad did the [00:35:00] best he could with what he had in the moment, and that was my place of common ground.

Because I've known as a parent, I've sometimes done the best I could

in the moment that I had, and I haven't been perfect and I've yelled at my kids and I've apologized and all these kind of things. And so it helped me to find that common ground place that I felt sometimes think that we missed. And so in those disagreements, it's intentionally seeking out and finding where is this gray? If I don't search for the gray, I'll only see it in the black and white terms that I went into the conversation with.

Monica Packer: Okay, I can see that. What's the fifth and final pillar?

Justin Jones-Fosu: It's agree to respect

and notice. I didn't say agree to disagree

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

Justin Jones-Fosu: because I've seen a lot of people agree to disagree very disrespectfully

Monica Packer: Oh

Justin Jones-Fosu: and, agree to respect is where you find a, you formulate your plan to humanize the other person as well as yourself. So there's two aspects of

this. So one aspect is we [00:36:00] call one way that you can fully acknowledge people. One way to agree to respect and full acknowledgement does not mean full agreement, but we've often confused the two. And so, I love the work of Jean Jao, Stanford researcher came with this concept called Thank you because, so imagine we're having a tough conversation. You share something dive into the pillars.

I'm like, you know what, Monica? I wanna say thank you so much for sharing that because you shared it in a way that I never heard before and I appreciate you taking your time to share that with me. Or Wow. Monica number two really stood out are the three things you shared. I have to do some more research on number two, but thank you for sharing that because it, it, it really highlighted something I, I hadn't processed in a different way or Wow. Monica, this is a tough conversation for us to have. I simply wanna thank you because you didn't have to have it with me today, and you still chose to. That says a lot about your character. Now, not once did I say I agreed with you, Monica. We've often conflated full acknowledgement for full agreement, and we [00:37:00] can leave every conversation with full acknowledgement. Thank you for sharing your perspective. Wow, I heard something different I hadn't heard before. All these things, right? And so that's one way that we can do it one other way. It's not about that person, it's about ourselves. And it's also when we, if we've chosen to share our perspective, we have to agree to respect ourselves too, not just. Shut down what we're thinking right now. Again, not everything is worth sharing our perspective, but when we've chosen to share, I'm gonna give us one secret sauce to do this, ask to share your perspective.

It seems so counterintuitive because in today's society and social media, we don't have to ask to do anything,

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Justin Jones-Fosu: I'm just gonna tell you. But what it does, so say we had a tough, tough conversation right, about our parenting styles, Monica, and you know, it's like, wow, thank you sharing, sharing your perspective, Monica. I better understand how you parent and the journey of how you got there, what your parents taught you about parenting. Hey, hey Monica, are [00:38:00] you, you know, are you, are you open to me sharing my perspective that might be a little bit different than yours.

Now what I've.

Monica Packer: yes. Like as soon as you say that, it's like, yeah, sure.

Justin Jones-Fosu: What I've just done is I've opened you up to psychologically get ready to receive, I, I call it the, the dentist treatment, right? Because if a dentist just goes into our, our teeth just starts drilling, imagine they did it to one of our kids without prepping them, right?

We'd be like, whatcha doing prep? You know, because you can hold onto the things, prepare your feet or all these things. But we, that's how we often communicate with people. We just dive in. You know what I think I, I, I don't like that idea, right? The way I parent is, and we haven't even asked, can we share our own perspective?

Monica Packer: Hmm.

Justin Jones-Fosu: So psychologically it opens them up. But two, if they say no, or I've also sometimes can sense emotional intelligence.

This might not be the right time.

We may have talked a long time, we may be hungry, we may be tired. A baby could be crying in the background. All these kind of things. I might also infuse like, Hey, like thank you for sharing your [00:39:00] perspective a better extent you got there. You know, would you be open for me sharing my perspective that might be a little bit different and or is this the right time for me to share it?

Monica Packer: Got it. Mm-hmm.

Justin Jones-Fosu: And what it does is now. A person's open to receiving. If they've said yes, most times they say yes. There's been times they've said no. And now Justin, older Justin mature, Justin leaves the bridge open. I used to shut the bridge, but I don't wanna talk to you anyway. But more mature. Justin says, Hey, you know what? Thank you for sharing. Or let's come back to it. Or maybe a week from now is better. Right? And so while we have the conversation, but that's one of the secret pieces that we're missing when we share ours, is to ask the person, are they open? receiving it at that time.

Monica Packer: You know, I've had conversations about how to have hard conversations with quite a few people over the years. This one has not only created so many new light bulbs for me, like some deep light bulbs, or I'm like, oh, that's why that thing didn't work and that's why I've been avoiding this, and you know, stuff like that.

But it's also given [00:40:00] me such a practical path to do it better that I'm. I'm really grateful. I'm really grateful that you were able to be here today and teach us so much. I have, you know, just a couple quick questions that we typically end with, but I first wanna ask like, why and it's, it's just more like, this seems not only is this so revolutionary, it's also hard.

Justin Jones-Fosu: Yes it

Monica Packer: It's gonna take a lot of effort.

So why, why is it worth the effort to you? And you can even just speak personally, why is it worth the effort?

Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah, it's been a worth effort for me because, you know, I look at the situation with my dad that I've been avoiding all those years, and I tell people, you have no idea what, see what's on the other side? A respectful disagreement like now guess what? I've embraced my heritage in ways that I didn't even know I was holding back. While my dad and I, we aren't traveling around the world and camping and all that kind of stuff, we have a better relationship now. We are more connected. I don't have that same angst on Father's Day, [00:41:00] right? The connection is deepened. I now, I've even, you know what I've embraced. I never, I'm getting goosebumps talking about it.

I never would've realized I would embrace. Like supporting and working towards improving education. My dad's home village,

right? Like we're currently, or we're almost finished building a, a new middle school. My dad's home village, right? We did a clean water project, we did, you know, a dual desk and that all came from the conversation with my dad.

Not that he said I needed to do it, but in forgiving him, I was now willing to embrace things I didn't even realize I was holding back from him. So you have no idea what's on the other side of respectful disagreement. But I'm gonna give other two pieces for other people who are asking why, not only for you, but there could be a light bulb moment that goes off for them that allows you to connect in a way that they didn't even realize they needed. And the second aspect of it there's is [00:42:00] sometimes we're healthier. Little less stress because I've also had to create boundaries. Now I say I'm very careful with that word. Boundaries over barriers. Barriers never allow somebody to get back. Boundaries create healthy moments for your own safety, your own physical, emotional wellbeing. And sometimes there have been conversations and people in my life that I've had to create a, a boundary for, not a barrier, but a boundary, and communicate that boundary because I needed to operate in a space where I was best for my kids.

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Justin Jones-Fosu: I couldn't keep dealing with the stress of the, the conversation, the messiness, and sometimes it's, I brought in that same messiness. And so I, I, I say with people, it's also for our own mental health, our own emotional wellbeing, rather than consistently just dealing with or hiding or sweeping under the rug because we're taught to. [00:43:00] Right. So those are reasons why It's, it's mental health. It's better connections, it's being able to have more rich experience and it's doing what my mom taught us. It's leaving our metaphorical home bases to get to experience the beauty of people and coaches around us where we might learn to drive left in a country that drives on the left side.

Monica Packer: Yeah. Oh gosh. I wanna talk to you so much more, but let's wrap this up and have them know where to go if they want to learn more from you. I know you've written a couple books, but so, so feel free to share where's the best place for them to go?

Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah, one of the best places to go is I respectfully disagree. You can find out on Amazon or Barnes Noble's, all those other places online. But it's, I respectfully disagree how to have difficult conversations in the divided world. And it's about the big conversations, but also the small ones in our household with our spouse or even our kids. I wanna hit this quick. I make a lot [00:44:00] of mistakes with a dad, right? I've, I've, I have to learn how to practice these same principles with my kids because I, sometimes I can get into ego

and think I'm the parent. I know what's best and there's been times where I haven't listened to my daughter, Lydia and I haven't dug in deep. I haven't, you know, and it's been a bad outcome because she was actually right, but because I was an ego, I'm the parent, I'm the leader. I didn't value her voice.

And so I wanna share like, yo, I still make mistakes. You're gonna make mistakes in this. But what it's allowed me to do is to apologize quicker and get back onto the pillars of being a student, cultivating my curiosity, seeking the degree, and agreeing to respect.

And those have done, done wonders for me as a parent. So that's the first place I, I'd say to go is check out the book. And

you'll see that I talk about parenting and how I suck as a parent often, but I'm getting better. I'm

making progress. And the last place is work meaningful.com and that's kind of the umbrella organization where we do all of our work on really improving the employee, but [00:45:00] also personal experience of people.

Monica Packer: Well, we'll make sure to link to both of those places. We always end with the final question. What is one small way listeners can take action on what they learned today? So what would that be? I.

Justin Jones-Fosu: I think this is something that doesn't necessarily require other people, because sometimes that's one thing that stops people, is to challenge your perspective. I, I

really wanna encourage people to take the Circles of Grace Challenge.

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Justin Jones-Fosu: this is not something that you you know, it doesn't have to, it can be as complex or simple as you want.

It could be person in your neighborhood, you realize you just hadn't talked to.

Monica Packer: Okay.

Justin Jones-Fosu: For whatever reason that you'd be like, oh, I wonder why I've been blocking that. You know? I realized for Justin, right, my circle's greatest challenge. And again, I'm, I'm very vulnerable in this stuff. It was black women who are married to are in relationships with white men.

Monica Packer: Huh?

Justin Jones-Fosu: And I realized my, my director of operations, Dari, is a black woman who's married to Derek, a white male.

And when I grew up, I was thought that was wrong and, you know, and dah, dah, dah. And I would see that and I'm like, oh, that's not a good brothers for you. [00:46:00] Like, you know, and it, and it really bothered me.

But

I realized that's not, that's not the issue, right? Because people look, people may be listening like, oh, how dare you think that, right? We all have the things that we have, right? The issue is not a had the thought. It's what do I do with the thought once I have it?

Monica Packer: Hmm.

Justin Jones-Fosu: I began doing something and I realized I wasn't listening to people's stories.

I never asked Dari how she and Derek met

Monica Packer: Huh.

Justin Jones-Fosu: in a more and more. There's a reason why, right? It is a unconscious thing that I, I

was doing, I didn't wanna know. Right? And so in, in taking the Circles of Grace challenge, it allows us to sometimes deal with some of those things that we didn't realize were issues. And, to close that out, that story I still see a black woman, a white man. I'm like, you know, it's not no good brothers for you, but how I've chosen to respond to it has been different.

You know, I go through mental reframing. I now ask to hear more stories and it's, it's shaped how I choose to engage.

And so whether or not you engage with a person or reading movies or books, or learning about philosophy or theory or something that's [00:47:00] different that's one practical thing that you can do. Mistake. The circles a grace challenge.

Monica Packer: I am gonna do it.

Justin Jones-Fosu: Yay.

Monica Packer: this whole conversation was so wonderful. Thank you very much. We'd love to have you back anytime.

So thank you. Thank you for being here.

Justin Jones-Fosu: Thank you. We made progress today. Yes.

Monica Packer: We did. Oh gosh. So much progress. I loved how you kept alluding to that.

Okay, let's pause for just a second. 'cause what I'm gonna do is do the magic of editing and I'm gonna ask the question I should have asked you

Justin Jones-Fosu: Oh, that's

good.

Monica Packer: because, because this is, but we'll go to, we'll come back to the pillar. So I'm gonna ask the question. I'll put it in. What kinds of conflict styles do you see people are holding onto when they're thinking about these kind of conversations?

Okay, I'm gonna blo that in. You just shared a few that kind of expand on what you just shared. Ask another question and then we'll get, we'll get back to the pillars.

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