Facing Faith Uncertainty: A Guide to Bold Questioning || with Erin H. Moon

Someone asked if I felt less certain but more at peace with my faith, and it got me thinking. Maybe "peace" isn't quite right; perhaps it's more about patience and accepting what I can't control. My focus feels drawn to the essentials: being present with my family, teaching my kids, my work, and loving my people.

Join me and Erin H. Moon, bestselling author, podcaster, and storyteller who helps people disentangle faith, as we discuss this complex topic. When it comes to big spiritual questions, I often find myself without definitive answers. Pretending otherwise feels inauthentic. I'm learning that it's about being honest about what I don't know and finding comfort in the relationship I do have.

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TRANSCRIPT

Erin H. Moon: [00:00:00] I. think if you are interested in living a life of honesty. If you wanna know the truth and if you want the truth to set you free, which you don't have to, you don't, and you don't, you really don't. But I think if you

want that, I think questions are a part of the deal.

Monica Packer: Hi, this is Monica Packer and you are listening to About Progress where we are about progress Made practical.

One of the most popular episodes I've ever released over now close to 700 episodes was also my most vulnerable one about how I struggled with my religious faith. Over the years I have received. Literally hundreds and hundreds of messages about this single episode from those in my faith and from those in other Christian denominations, but also from those who are Jewish, Muslim and beyond as good and as [00:01:00] validating as it was to share in the struggle of spiritual uncertainty.

My own uncertainty didn't end there. My wrestle with God has continued to this very day. Along the way, I found an unexpected companionship with evangelical Christian women who I found could relate to so much of why and how I've struggled with my Christian denomination.

Erin H Moon is one of these women as a biblical scholar, writer, and podcaster with a sometimes irreverent, but always educational faith podcast called Faith Adjacent. She's no stranger to grappling with major questions of faith, spirituality, and religion. I have learned a great deal from Erin thanks to this podcast and also from her first book, which I absolutely devoured, called I've Got Questions.

If there's one big thing I have learned from Erin, it's that God wants your questions, that is what we will be [00:02:00] discussing today, how to navigate the great difficulty in having spiritual questions that rock the foundation to your faith. Why it feels so scary and ways to move through it all with grace, curiosity, and courage.

And as part of that, how to make better peace with uncertainty. I know this is traditionally a personal development podcast, but I've seen time and time again that our faith is a big part of our development. Seeing as this episode is more geared towards those of Christian faith and not even a specific one at that, I will own that this interview, may not be for everyone.

. But I do know that this episode is for those whose struggles with faith take up a great deal of time and energy and soul. And for those who aren't looking for prescriptive answers, but to feel less alone as they find their own.

Erin Hicks Moon is a writer, podcaster, and storyteller who helps people disentangle [00:03:00] faith by creating a kind and curious community that welcomes honest doubt and questions. She is the resident Bible scholar and host of the Faith Adjacent Podcast and senior Creative at Podcast Media Group. A homesick Texan.

She lives in Birmingham, Alabama with her husband and three children where she bravely tries to live without yellow queso every day. That interview is coming up after a quick break for our sponsors.

 Erin h Moon. Welcome to About Progress.

Erin H. Moon: so happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

Monica Packer: It's a privilege for me. You know, I loved your book so much. I've got it here. I'm gonna put it on display for those who are watching this episode and you write in this book, I've got questions that quote, having it out with God is our spiritual heritage.

Wrestling isn't the problem, it's the point, unquote. And that, to me was just a relief in a sentence, you know? It just felt visceral to me.

Erin H. Moon: I am glad.

Monica Packer: But I know this because I follow you, [00:04:00] I've read your book, but I wanted our community to understand what brought you to that point of accepting that this is my heritage, to wrestle.

Erin H. Moon: Um, I think, you know. When I grew up evangelical and there was just so many things that I kind of accepted at face value, which I think is a totally normal thing to do when you're a kid. Um, and as I kind of grew and learned and took, started taking my faith more seriously, I started looking at some of these things that I had just kind of accepted.

Um. And wanted to better understand them. And as I started to look at scripture, as I started to kind of learn more about the history of what I believed in my faith and Christianity in general, I started noticing just this sort of pattern of thi this is not a group of people who just sort of were like.

They got a word from God and they were like, great. Got it. Had, we're gonna go do [00:05:00] it. And no questions asked.

Um, and really I noticed that specifically from the story of Jacob and Esau, um, Jacob of Jacob and Esau and uh, Amy. Jill Levine is a, uh, Jewish scholar and writer. And she actually writes a lot about, uh, Christianity and Jesus, which I think is very interesting from a Jewish perspective.

But she talks a lot about how, um, when Jacob wrestled the angel of the Lord, um. After he, you know, he went, he went on this, you know, this long, kind of, you know, journey, long night of the soul, sort of a situation when, uh, he wrestled and at the end of that, uh, God gave him a new name and the name was Israel. And, uh, we, we don't know a lot about the etymology of the name of Israel, but it. They, a lot of scholars think it means like to wrestle, to grapple, um, that kind of, that's, that's kind of what they think it means. And not only did God [00:06:00] give Jacob that name, he gave his people that name. And I, I find that to be very interesting.

We are not the, we are not the people who obey blindly. We are not the people who just say, yes, we are the people who wrestle. And so to me that was, that really kind of opened up a lot. Of I, it is a part of who we are to ask questions, to, to wonder about things. God has not asked us to just kind of go, yes, good.

Got it. I'm on, I'm on it and I'll do whatever you say. I think God expects us to ask questions. God's not surprised that we're human and, uh, God's not surprised that this is a, this is a hard thing. Faith is a hard thing. And, um, so that, that brought a lot of comfort to me when I

started.

looking at that story through that lens.

I think that was really helpful.

Monica Packer: I think one of my moments was learning about Mother Theresa years ago,

and you referenced that in your book too, right? When I was like,

wow, if Mother Theresa

Erin H. Moon: yes,

Monica Packer: with her faith for [00:07:00] decades

and in such an intense way, then maybe I'm okay too.

And

Erin H. Moon: And, and that's a pattern we see for, I mean, so Ma Martin Luther, Martin, Luther King, Julian of Norwich. I mean, so almost everyone who we know about as a like, quote unquote famous, you know, spiritual person, they had these same type of struggles. They. They were like, they did not, they did not, famously believe all the time,

and there's a reason for that, and I think it's because that's

the point

of this whole thing.

Monica Packer: Yeah. Let's just needle point

Erin H. Moon: Yeah. 100%.

Monica Packer: point. Well, you talked about, you know, it being common among believers even more than we think, even the most devout in quotes among people that we can see as faithful.

Believers of any sort. But at the same time, if it's our spiritual heritage, why do we get so stuck on certainty

in our modern times? And why do you think we're in this place that [00:08:00] any questioning is seen as a lack of faith when really it is, as you've been saying, like this is faith to, to question.

Erin H. Moon: I think we get stuck on certainty because it feels really safe and our brains love to feel safe. Um, there is

a comfort

to knowing exactly. I mean, I have my routines every morning. Every evening when I come into work every day, I

know exactly what I'm gonna do. I have a uniform that I wear pretty much every day.

Um, I know my schedules, my kids know their schedules. They know how the days are gonna look. That makes them feel safe, that comforts them. Um, when my kids don't know what we're

gonna eat for dinner, they like freak out

because they are creatures of habit. It makes them feel very safe.

And I think when, you know.

When we have questions about something as big as

God and spirituality and faith, that,

that's

terrifying. And especially growing up evangelical, if [00:09:00] you grew up that way, you have, you have rapture trauma, you have, you know, you

Monica Packer: talking to my best friend who grew up Baptist about that last

Erin H. Moon: Yes, absolutely. And that puts like this

kind of tyranny of the urgent on you,

which is, hey, you

gotta have all this figured out.

And because if you don't,

if you

die, it's, it's a bad deal, like permanently, And that that creates just that. That terror within you. And so I think that whether consciously or unconsciously we carry that around with us, even if we've technically moved past that belief, we do carry that around with us. And so,

you know.

I

think it's very easy

and plus if, if you have, if you have decided in your own soul or whatever, you've got it. Okay, I've, I've, decided what I believe everything is good. And then you see someone who is asking questions, you know, kind of, kind of walking through, [00:10:00] um, their own

kind of deconstruction, reconstruction journey that feels like a threat

And that, and you go, well.

Uh,

maybe I'm, maybe I'm not safe.

Maybe, maybe

they're right. And that feels very threatening and I think it is a, um, that can, that can make you feel unmoored and if, if they're unraveling their sweater, what happens if you unravel your sweater? And so I, I think we like to feel that

safety, that sense of connection with other people.

And when

that gets threatened,

it can be a really scary experience.

Monica Packer: Hmm. You spoke to some of the internal pressures we face. I think you're so right. So much of it is, is fear based, but also kind of rightfully so, right? Because

there, there's external pressures too that, uh, push that fear. I was wondering if you could speak to those as well.

Erin H. Moon: Yeah, I think, I think, isolation is a

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

Erin H. Moon: if you're a part of a faith community, and [00:11:00] you know, being a

part of a faith community means that you have

in

some ways agreed upon a certain

number

of beliefs, and that's why you're a part of this faith community. You know, maybe that's a creed.

Maybe that's certain amount of doctrines, maybe that's a baptism,

you know, understanding

or whatever. If you start to question

those things.

That means you're on the outside of those, and that can mean that you are isolated. That can mean that you are no longer a part of that

group, and which means you're losing your

community.

Maybe you're losing your

church.

Maybe you're losing your

small group, maybe you're losing all of your friends or all of your family. Maybe, Maybe, your, maybe you and your spouse aren't agreeing anymore. Maybe

you and your kids aren't agreeing anymore. And that's, I mean, that's at the core, that's a sense of belonging. And

that that right there will speak to a very, very deep place

of [00:12:00] who you are.

So I don't, I don't actually

begrudge

anyone. For

having that kind of fear, I think. But I do think that

there will be a time when you have to decide,

am I willing to put aside these

questions knowing that the people that I love

and that claim to love me,

don't love me enough

to let me

ask

these questions.

And that's a hard, that's a hard thing to do.

It really is. And I don't, I don't

blame anyone for, for being, being scared of that. 'cause it's scary.

Monica Packer: Well, that I, isolation piece, I think is so clear when we see that from the outside too. But as you said, it's, it's an isolation from belonging and including belonging to yourself. So

in questioning, you're not just questioning some like thing outside of you, you're questioning who you are.

Erin H. Moon: yeah,

absolutely. I mean, because you, you've built, I mean, I know for myself, I had built my entire identity. I mean, [00:13:00] my, my, my spirituality was tied to my job.

It was tied to, um, my

friend

group, my marriage, my children,

everything. And so, gosh, you pull that string and who am who even am

I? And that's that's really, that's really terrifying.

Monica Packer: You said you'd reach a point though, where you can no longer try to like bridge that gap, like you're doing the splits

now, so something's kind of give,

what did that look like for you and how would someone know that it's their time?

Erin H. Moon: You know, I think that's,

so for me,

it wasn't like. Here's the point, and you know, you can,

you know, two

roads diverged in a wood. I think that can happen for people. Absolutely. For me it was much slower. It was much, um, I started, you know, I started asking questions about stuff in college and you know, it took me until on,

I'm still doing that.

I, and, and I think that that can be a process that comes [00:14:00] with you your entire

life. And

I hope it is because I really do

believe that

an act of faith is one that is constantly kind of turning over the soil and,

you know, looking

for roots or rot and what's, what's underneath,

you know, this plant or

what, what are we doing here, you know, that I think that's, that's a part of it.

Um. But I think, I think there can be, you know, a fixed point. Your, your child can come out, a church can break up a, um, you know, there can be a death in the family that you can lose a job. There can be that traumatic kind of fixed

point sort of a situation. But I don't think it

has to be that.

I think there

can be lots of different ways, that you can kind of start to. To go, uh, hold on. I don't,

I don't actually know if

what I thought I believed

is

actually

holding up in the real world.

Monica Packer: And I know part of your own path was realizing what you actually believe [00:15:00] what it meant to be a Christian, didn't hold up to the way that you felt other Christians were living up to those standards that you thought should be shared.

Erin H. Moon: And honestly, I

include myself in that. Like it wasn't just, it wasn't just that I saw like them out there. It was like, oh

me too.

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Erin H. Moon: Me also.

Monica Packer: Well, that's good to have that awareness,

Erin H. Moon: it's

just blind. Very blinding.

Monica Packer: Yeah. Yeah. Those moments of humility

right, are really important too. I, I like that in your path that it was so gradual because in my own experience, and from what I've heard from so many others is that often is what it looks

like.

It's, it is so gradual. It doesn't have to be a circumstantial big moment or trigger, but it can still feel just as jarring,

right? When you finally get to that point where you're like, wait, I am at that point and I don't know when and how it happened, but I'm here.

Um, and you speak in your book about the real grief that can

come. As we question and I, I know there's stages of grief. I think we can all rattle those off, but I think there's stages of [00:16:00] particular unique stages of grieving what you thought you knew and what you know now, and who you thought you were and who you actually are. And that how that all has to do with faith, deconstruction, and then reconstruction. And I was just wondering if you could give us any markers of what that path looks like. And again, I know it's. Likely so subjective. Um,

but you've done this work for a long time and helped so many others, so what are, what should they be expecting there? Yeah,

Erin H. Moon: Yeah. So I think for me, um, what I kind of started off at is I wanted

to really examine kind of my origins,

where I came from. Um, I, I don't

think that you can really

understand where you're going unless you know

where you came from. And so I went back and just sort of really went through the, you

know, the file folders of my.

Beginnings and, was interested in the things that shaped me, the pastors that I had,

the,

you know, the bible studies that I went through. And a lot of that [00:17:00] was, you know, I went through purity culture and I did not have the typical Southern Baptist evangelical upbringing that I

know a lot of

people did.

Now, it was very, I had a

wonderful, wonderful childhood pastor that I actually

still speak to. He was an, he's an amazing man and I

had, my parents were excellent. I also grew up

in purity culture, which was, you

know, traumatic

in in its own

way and,

you know, these types of things. And then, so it was, it was very helpful for me to kind of understand

the soil in which I grew up in.

And then

I think. The next thing for me to do was I'm not very good at,

um, being sad. I would rather not,

Monica Packer: I would rather be mad.

Erin H. Moon: well, yes,

Monica Packer: they're same from,

Erin H. Moon: yes, I would. I would much rather be angry

And

when, when, like someone is going through

a difficult

time.

Uh,

let me, let me drop a casserole off. I don't, I don't,

I don't wanna sit, I don't wanna sit with you in that.

It's very [00:18:00] difficult for me. Um, but, uh, I, I needed to Really?

become acquainted with lament and grief

because there were so many things about not only my upbringing, but the way that I saw the world and the way I

understood the world, and.

That bumping up against my faith and how I saw God and how, you know, God saw me and all of these things

that I needed to grieve.

And

so, um, I learned a lot about

different, um, grief

practices and that type of a thing

and just really

started

becoming.

Better acquainted with the practice of grief, which I hate.

And

I,

if you can avoid it, great. But

I don't think we can.

So

Monica Packer: think we can.

Erin H. Moon: yeah, it's, necessary.

Monica Packer: Can you share one in particular that

Erin H. Moon: yeah. Yeah. The, the Jewish practice of sitting Shiva is,

is a

rich, [00:19:00] rich text.

And, um, I, I actually have a whole chapter about it in the book that it's just, it's so.

It, it's so. Deeply metaphorical. I

mean, it's, it's practical as well.

Um, but there are, there's just

so many ways that you can interpret so many

facets of it. Um,

and it's, it's just really, stu it's stunning. Um, and it, it, it

offers you a a, a process.

It offers you a way to kind of walk through grief as opposed to just

where I was like. Let's just lay in bed and eat

potato chips

until you're not sad anymore.

And that's, which

is a strategy, but I don't know that it's a good one.

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Erin H. Moon: So, um, but yeah, that

Monica Packer: deeply feeling,

Erin H. Moon: right. Yes, absolutely. And I, I'm not, I often, I'm a, I'm an Enneagram three,

which is.

Which is, uh, I, I feel things, but I don't know what they are.

And, um, so that was actually very helpful for me to kind of get my hands around [00:20:00] what I was feeling, um, and understanding what it was. So, um, and then I just wanted to ask a lot of questions. I had a lot of questions about the Bible and about scripture and about God, and about faith, and about what.

What is, what we're supposed to be doing here and why this is set up this way.

And so I just kind of

vomited all of those questions out and that was really powerful for me. And, um, I started looking at

like the things

that if I was going to continue to be a Christian, if I was going to continue to believe in God, what were the things that

were gonna keep me from doing

that?

Uh, like what were my pressure points is what I kind of ended up calling them. And then, um. I really wanted to, there's this, there's this idea, I think, in,

in

faith

that you

have boundaries that you're not really allowed to go past. And if you go past those boundaries, you're backsliding, you're a heretic.

You know, these are

Monica Packer: frog boiling. Exactly.

Erin H. Moon: 100% Peter, pagan, Katy, Christian, that [00:21:00] kind of a thing.

If you're, if you grew up in the youth group, you

know what I'm talking about. But, the more I kind of started looking over

the fence to see

what

was, what was out there, I was like,

I dunno, I don't, I dunno if some of these are as bad as we thought they were.

I don't know. I don't, I don't know if these are,

I, I would like to, I would like to check these out. And so I sort of hopped the fence and I wanted to see, not necessarily that I would keep them, but I wanted to see what they were about. Um, and knowing that that wasn't necessarily something that was gonna, you know,

land me in the eighth circle of hell or whatever, but that, that

I could, I could go foraging

and I could go seeing what was.

You know what, what else was out there? And um, I had a lot of fun doing that, honestly.

Um, and then there was this practice, um, that I was very

interested in

that, was

you're not gonna know, you're not gonna get answers to all of your questions because that's not how this works. I'm not gonna know why bad things happen to [00:22:00] good people.

I'm not gonna know,

A, b, and C of All of the

things that I wanna know. On this side of eternity. Um, and making peace with that. And making peace with God and learning to decide if that was enough to continue having faith. And, um, and then just kind of this process of rebuilding my faith. And what does that look like?

Um, Andy Squires, who's one of my favorite songwriters, he talks about, um. He talks about like kind of, um, taking your deconstruction and almost going back and reconstructing your deconstruction. And I've always, I've always loved that idea of like, we, we go back to the things that we began in because we see them now for what they are and They They weren't bad to begin with, but they now they have a fresh view. We have a fresh view of them. And, um, just kind of rebuilding some of those things from a different lens. And, [00:23:00] um, but that was, that was my process. And I think, I think everybody has their own. And I, I, again, I don't know that, I don't know that this process is ever over.

I don't know that you ever complete it, and I don't know that I want it to ever be complete, um, because the, the faith that I experience now. It, it's, it seems to me so much more active than this kind of checklist faith that I had previously, which was, do your quiet time, pray for 20 minutes with the Acts method.

Make sure that you journal and you know, have you talked to three people about Jesus today? And that wasn't. Which is fine, I guess, but it, I, it, it didn't mean anything to me. My relationship that I have with Jesus now, I feel like it means something to me. I it is an actual relationship as opposed to me just checking boxes.

Monica Packer: and that [00:24:00] ultimately is a goal. I

I'm glad you'd share your process though, because I think it can give people kind of some checkpoints or some things they can try and I'm sure it's, you know, going back and forth or

over and under all of that.

Erin H. Moon: You know, I had a, I had a friend once who, and this was probably when I was in college, and it blew my mind, and it feels so elementary now, but it, it

completely shook me.

And I remember him drawing a line on a board and he was like, I feel like sometimes we look at our lives with Jesus, like a line, like we're

trying to go somewhere, like

we're getting to

the. End of something and then

like underneath it,

he drew this like big squiggle and he was like, I actually think we just keep

coming back around. And I was like, oh. Oh, like, it's not like a,

it's

not like a race or like,

and he was like,

no, I don't, I

don't think it is. And I was like,

that kind of, I dunno.

because,

'cause I think in, I think in Western American culture, I think we, we gamify everything

and we [00:25:00] make everything

be a race or a destination.

And I'm just not sure that that's exactly what it is.

I think we may have,

put a little more competition into it

than is exactly necessary.

Monica Packer: Well, and it kind of speaks back to what you were saying about certainty. A part of why I think we struggle with this, the circle, the spiral rather than the line is because we love thinking that there's an arrival.

Erin H. Moon: yeah.

And you don't get

to the end of your

faith. And there's like. The

princess in the castle and you jump on the flag and you beat the big boss. Like that's, that doesn't happen. It's no,

there's no like, end to

1. It's just, it's, it's life with God and it's

up and down and it's sideways, but there's no, there's no finale to it, I don't think.

Monica Packer: and I think that's partly what you have to grieve is that

Erin H. Moon: Oh one. [00:26:00] Yes,

Monica Packer: no arrival.

Erin H. Moon: Yes. There's nobody, you're not getting a, a, a ribbon at the end for first place.

I wish we could too.

Monica Packer: So, I, I'm actually curious about the stage where you were looking over the fence, which I'm sure is still ongoing. Was there anything that surprised you?

Erin H. Moon: Oh,

yeah. I mean, I, I can't imagine,

I mean. I can't imagine telling like 13-year-old me that I was like, Hey,

I don't know that hell exists in the way that we thought it did.

Monica Packer: Yeah. Yeah.

Erin H. Moon: You, she would freak out about that.

Richard Ward talks about the three boxes, the first box that you have, which is like, here are all the things that

I need to know and I

need to understand because my, my brain needs like containment,

my brain needs, enclosure.

And so it's, it's order, right? You've got the, this box of order and then the next box is disorder and you're taking everything out of the box.

'cause you're like, I don't even, like, why don't even have all this stuff in this box. I don't, I [00:27:00] don't. I gotta get it out. I gotta look at it. I gotta see what it is. I didn't. I did, I even put all this stuff in this box who put this stuff in this box for me? And then the next box, after you've taken everything out and looked at it, is a

box

of reorder. And you're

putting, okay, I, I took these things out. I looked at them. Some of them I'm not, I'm not putting them back. In some of them I am putting

them back in.

And I think there are, there are lots of ways

that you can look at deconstruction and reconstruction

and

there are ways that we can. Kind of almost

talk back to our former, our former

selves and, and go,

Hey, you believed that for a reason and you don't have to feel bad about that.

You don't like, we don't have to

shame you for that. You

believed that because

you were told that because

You didn't have a prefrontal cortex yet, and you needed to, to, to do that. Like you needed to understand it that way. That's okay. It's, it's, it's totally fine, but we're, we're moving in [00:28:00] a different direction or we understand something in a better way now and we can leave that behind or we can like kind of hold onto both things.

Because we just Don't really know.

Like There are lots of smart people who think about this in a really different way. And so we don't know, but we can, we can, here's three different ways we can think about this and we can just move forward with those three different ways.

'cause we don't, we just don't know.

Monica Packer: you know, you spoke of the former self and the compassion that you can have to that. I think that helps so much. Remove the anger piece of it,

you know, so that you can actually process it differently.

Erin H. Moon: And the shame too,

Monica Packer: The

shame. Yeah. Yeah. And as part of that, I, I think of often in this conversation I, um, had with a friend where we were in a similar place of just feeling all those feelings, right? And,

um, and, and the disappointment of no longer being able to. Have certainty that you used to

have, and my friend expressed sadness that she could never go [00:29:00] back to that black and white faith. And that even that was really hard for her to process.

Like, I can't ever go back. Um, I know you've, you've done that. Uh, so what would you say to someone who's at that point of, of mourning that piece of their life?

Erin H. Moon: I think one let the morning happen.

Um, don't try to, don't try to talk yourself out of it. Don't try to shame yourself or. You know, be frustrated with yourself about it, because it's

valid. But

also

know

that faith and that certainty,

that's a lie. It was always a lie. It

wasn't real. Um, and what you believed it, it was never gonna hold up in the real world.

And it, there was never any future for you to keep it. And that's hard, that's a really hard [00:30:00] thing to come to terms with. I look at so many people now and I'm like, wow, that seems nice. It seems

very nice the way you're living. I would love, I would love to have less self-awareness.

Sounds great.

but that's,

that's

not a real way to live. I think that as hard as it is to know

that certainty doesn't exist and that

we have to

engage, like

actually engage our hearts and actually engage our brains and our spirits, it is better than believing something that isn't real, believing a lie

of certainty that doesn't actually exist.

But, but to honor the

loss and to hon and to, to mourn. To mourn it. For sure. For sure.

Monica Packer: You know, we talked about there is no arrival. So the question I have next for you is not about like what's on the other side of this,

like when we're done, but it is

more of like in the process of this, of, of reshaping what it looks like to be a person of faith, which is synonymous with [00:31:00] being a person of questions. Um, what is better than. What is better for you? Um, what do you see is better and others as they're willing to move through this instead of avoid it, pretend it's not happening.

Erin H. Moon: I. think if you are interested in living a life of honesty. If you wanna know the truth and if you want the truth to set you free, which you don't have to, you don't, and you don't, you really don't. Um, I think there's a, there's a life to be lived where you don't. But I think if you

want that, I think questions are a part of the deal.

I think. I think you have to decide if, if truth is worth it to you. I think you have to decide if you want the

answers or if you want Jesus.

Monica Packer: answer,

Erin H. Moon: And

one [00:32:00] is the way, the truth in the

life

and

one will make you

feel certain in your

time here.

Monica Packer: Hmm.

Erin H. Moon: And unfortunately the two might be mutually exclusive and they have been in my. Uh, experience.

And so

for me, I'm

not certain about

anything,

like hardly anything at all,

but I do have a friendship with Jesus

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

Erin H. Moon: and

that is very valuable to me and it is very meaningful to me. I find my friendship with Jesus to be, to be

very life-giving because.

My, I don't, I can't have a friendship with certainty,

because I don't get anything out of that at all. So I think, that is the decision that you have to make. Um, you have to decide which one is better, and that's the, that's the choice.

Monica Packer: W would it be accurate to say that you have less certainty, but more peace?[00:33:00]

Erin H. Moon: Yeah.

Monica Packer: peace in the process

Erin H. Moon: Yeah, I,

well, I mean, I say that and I

may maybe,

so, yeah, I don't know that, I don't know that I have a lot of peace. I think I have a lot of,

Monica Packer: I think I

Erin H. Moon: I think I have a lot of patience. Now I think I have, I have more patience and I think I have a better understanding, not of God, but of, I have a better sense of what I

can't control

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Erin H. Moon: and

maybe that's what it is.

Maybe that, and, and that like I

am here

at the will

of Holy Spirit. I

am here. I have a small collection of things that I've been asked to do.

Mainly be with my family, teach my children, go to my

job, love my husband,

love my family, these types of things. [00:34:00] And

if I can be faithful

in those things, I,

and, and I, I can't control

so much. There's so many things that I can't control. And

I cannot be certain about

so many theological things. So

many like

great big spiritual ma, I mean, massive questions that we have.

But

I can

know

that I have a friendship with

Jesus, and to me

that is much better than

pretending and

lying to myself. That

I

know answers to things that I, I, I absolutely do not.

Does that make, I mean, does that make

sense?

Monica Packer: total

sense. It's like a, it may not be as much peace in terms of having answers, but more like peace with the uncertainty and

peace with

Erin H. Moon: Yes. I think that is a, that's a, that's a

fair thing to say.

Monica Packer: Patience with those [00:35:00] things.

Well, for people who want that, I'm gonna again, refer them to your book. I've got questions. It was so beautifully written.

Um, and researched too. I, I, I loved how we got to know more of your story. Of course, but it wasn't just an anecdotal book, um, which. To me is powerful because it's something I can not only get your experience on, but learn from on how to work through my own spiritual practice of having it out with God. Is there anything you want someone to know about this book?

Erin H. Moon: The biggest takeaway for me is God wants your honesty. God

wants you to be a person and God knows you're a person. He's not surprised by that.

And

that's where you can start. There is there is a starting point to

this and it is your

absolute total honesty.

And that is what, that is what God is ready for. So.

Monica Packer: Well, before I ask my final [00:36:00] question, I wanna make sure we, refer them to wherever you'd like them to go.

Besides getting the book, where, where should they go

Erin H. Moon: I am on the interwebs at Erin H. Moon everywhere, Substack, Instagram, all the places. So that is where you can find me.

Monica Packer: Okay. Well, we will link to those things. We like to always end by asking what is one small way listeners can take action on what they learned today. It may be what you just said,

Erin H. Moon: mean, it may be like it, it genuinely may be. I think, you know, I think so often we feel like we have to edit ourselves for God. Uh, we have to, you know, we're waiting to come to God with, I've got, I've got all my theology figured out. I've got, you know, everything's in a perfect line and, um, now I

can come.

That's not true. There is only honesty. Vulnerability is where we make connections with one another and God desires your vulnerability. So

Monica Packer: Beautiful. I think that's the best note to end on. [00:37:00] Um, Erin H. Moon, thank you very much for your time today. Thank you

Erin H. Moon: thank you so much for having me.

Monica Packer: the last second. I'm like, throw in the h. Need to make sure there's an

H

Erin H. Moon: it's okay.

I hope this episode gave you the hug and kick in the pants you need to grow. I'll now share the progress pointers. These are the notes I took so you don't have to, and those on my newsletter, get them in a graphic form each week. You can sign up at about progress.com/newsletter. Number one, certainty makes us feel safe, so it makes sense that having questions of faith can feel like a threat to our certainty.

Number two, other things that may add to the fear. Include potential isolation, division from others, loneliness, a crisis of identity and more. Number three, owning that it's part of our spiritual heritage to wrestle, to ask hard questions can help us move through the fear differently. Number four, some steps to quote, having it out with God.

Include, [00:38:00] become acquainted with your own spiritual story. Learn how to grieve. Ask lots of questions, make peace with uncertainty and rebuild your faith. And number five, there is no end to this. It's an ongoing process. Carry a lot of compassion to this path, to your former spiritual self.

Where you are now and where you're headed. Your do something challenge this week is to get vulnerable with God. I would love to hear about how you do that. You can message me. On Instagram at about progress, or you can email me at [email protected].

While I was so eager to have this conversation with Erin, I have to admit it was a little scary to air this, but I know in advance that our community here is very open and kind and curious, and I expect that response to a trickier topic than we may typically navigate on the podcast. This podcast is listener supported.

[00:39:00] Members of the Supporters Club make my work with about progress free and available to all, and they get access to three levels of exclusive benefits. From more time to more content with me, I would love for you to consider to become a supporter by going to about progress.com/support. You can always support the show for free though.

Please leave a review, make sure you've subscribed, share the show with a friend and really important right now. Subscribe to us on YouTube and watch the podcast there if you like, video kind of content. Thank you so much for listening. Now go and do something with what you learned today.

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Please leave a review, make sure you've subscribed, share the show with a friend and. And really important right now. Follow. Subscribe to us on YouTube and listen there and watch the podcast there if you like, video kind of content.

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