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How Self-Care Saved Our Marriage || an honest conversation on how healthy marriages need two people who are taking care of themselves

Feb 03, 2025

 

Have you ever felt like a martyr in your own home, doing everything right for everyone else but slowly losing yourself in the process? In this episode, my husband Brad and I share our deeply personal story of how we navigated the choppy waters of marital stress and found salvation through self-care.

We’ll take you back to 2015, a pivotal year for our marriage, and discuss how self-care transformed our lives individually and as a couple. From my early struggles with balancing motherhood and personal needs to Brad’s own journey to prioritize himself, this episode dives deep into the practical steps and hard conversations that saved us. Tune in to hear why self-care isn’t just a buzzword; it’s a necessity for sustaining healthy relationships and personal well-being.

Referenced episodes: 3 types of self care, leave martyrdom behind, self care to support yourself, the biggest self care myths, practical ways to make time for yourself

 

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Songs Credit: Pleasant Pictures Music Club

 

TRANSCRIPT

 

Monica Packer: Hi, I'm Monica Packer, and you're listening to About Progress, where we are about progress made practical.

 

I know I was not the most pleasant wife to be around in 2015. it Wasn't that I was mean, sarcastic, or dismissive towards my spouse, I was just a martyr. I can say that now, but I don't say it as harshly as it sounds. I honestly can say that with compassion.

 

At that point in our lives, we had been married about eight years and I had a baby born midway through that summer. It was our third child born in under four years. Our oldest turned four, four days after our third came.

 

Monica Packer: With Brad working in San Francisco between a crappy bike to the public transit, he had a very long commute, and he also had very long hours, often working early in the morning and well into the night, with certain seasons of time, he was working six to seven days a week.

 

I had quit my job as a middle school teacher to stay home with the kids, and while I wanted to do that, it was all encompassing. It was exhausting and isolating work. Two of those three children would later be diagnosed with special needs. But at the time, all I knew was that it seemed we had the hardest kids in the world, let alone in the neighborhood.

 

All day, every day was an intense exercise in. Patience, creativity, persistence, and forbearance. It took all of me. I felt like I had to be the martyr for my family. That if I stepped away to have any bit of my own interests, to take a little time to rest or to socialize, to take care of myself, that it would come at the cost

 

of everyone else's well being. Honestly, at the time, I didn't see how anything else could be true. But that martyrdom that I fell into, it turned me into someone else, someone I definitely didn't recognize. And Brad, my husband, didn't recognize either. So While I wasn't mean, I wasn't me.

 

My own lack of self truly cost so much for my entire family. And while you've likely heard about that reality for myself and for our young kids at the time, the truth is, is that it was also very hard on our marriage. Because when Brad finally got home from work, I had nothing left to give.

 

And year after year of that will take a toll on anyone on any relationship. About progress didn't start out of thin air. It began because I could see how much my kids and my marriage were suffering thanks to my pursuit to be a martyr mom. I knew that if I wanted to preserve the most important relationships of my life, something had to change, and in ways that were both doable and dependable.

 

So, you know the story. I wrote my first do something list. I began an experiment of progress over perfection. I started this podcast as a way to explore all of that and more. But what you may not know is the most underlying foundation to all of this, all that I began to do and to try, was very simple. It was about putting myself on the list.

 

It was about taking care of me, too. Self care is often seen as pampering, and while that can totally be true and even worthy I see self care as a way we respect ourselves by prioritizing our wants and needs. It's about taking time to feel supported. It's about being on our own lists. Self care isn't selfish.

 

It's what allows us to have a self to give from. For me and for us, it wasn't overnight. And it wasn't super dramatic, but gradually over time, miracles began to happen. It turned out being on my own list didn't hurt the ones I loved. It made loving them even more possible. Today, Brad is joining me on the podcast to speak more openly about why self care creates healthier marriages.

 

 We'll reminisce a bit about our now 17 year marriage and how learning to prioritize my self care helped us begin to heal and come together in our marriage, but we also wanted to share something else, another side to the story on how Brad also had to make a shift to better prioritize his own self care and how doing so, that is what truly saved our marriage.

 

That is all coming up after a quick break for our sponsors.

 

Monica Packer: Okay. I've got Brad here. Hello, Brad.

 

Brad Packer: Hello.

 

Monica Packer: Nice to have you. So what we thought we would do is kind of talk about our own, just history in terms of where we were at with our own self care and how that relates to how we were doing as a couple and, and what it's like now, which is not perfect, right? Because no marriages and that's not what we're trying to get at.

 

Like, wow, we leave this perfect life and have a perfect marriage. But in many ways, It's so much better. And that's what we hope to inspire. So I thought it'd be nice to go back to the martyr Monica days. Which for me, I feel like we're at their peak in 2015. I will say like that martyrdom does sneak up to like, It just pops up here and there, but that's when I really feel like I was bound by that martyrdom of feeling like if I put myself on my list, everyone else will suffer.

 

And what happened is everyone suffered. So I wanted to get your perspective first on what life was like back in 2015 like as a family and within our marriage too.

 

Brad Packer: Sure. I mean, I think the main, I think the main thing is. Going back 10 years is we had three very young kids. They were all four and younger.

 

And so they needed, they needed our help in doing everything. They were at the phase where, you know, they weren't getting dressed. They weren't making their lunches. They weren't able to entertain themselves. So we found. ourselves basically needing to take care of a hundred percent of their needs. And on top of that, I was also working a lot at the time.

 

And you know, our third was born in the middle of 2015 and was, you know, so we were going through the newborn phase and I wasn't very accessible. I wasn't around for a good chunk of the year. I was working six days a week and then did a job change partway through the year, which we anticipated, meaning.

 

I'd be able to have more work life balance and spend more time at home. And that didn't happen. And so we felt like, or I feel like for you, it was managing the home, managing the children, not having a ton of support from me and just having all that stress of basically running the show and not having any you time, not having any.

 

Any of your own desires and needs and wants fulfilled because you were taking care of everyone else.

 

Monica Packer: Yeah. That definitely lays the, the, the scene out for sure. I'm curious how it felt though, for you, like, did you sense a shift in me? I feel like it was probably so gradual. It wasn't like this dramatic, like, Whoa, you're totally different.

 

But did you have any moments where you're like this isn't good or. I, should I be worried? Or I am worried?

 

Brad Packer: Well, I feel like part of it was just, I, maybe I tried to attribute the moments of, of stress and the moments where I could tell that you were dealing with a lot on the fact that we had just had a, a newborn.

 

So it's like, Oh yeah, of course we have, we have a newborn kid. So of course, Monica is going to feel this way. Or, is going to feel this burden, feel this stress, but maybe, I think that I felt it a little more, maybe towards the end of the year, as I was in this new job and I realized that, you know, I was expecting to be home by certain times and I wasn't, and a lot of it was just unpredictable where I would think, and I would commit to you like, Oh yeah, I'm going to be home by like, By this time tonight and then all of a sudden it's two hours later and I'm still in the office and maybe I And a lot of times I think I hadn't communicated that to you So you're just sitting there expecting me to arrive home at any moment Which I had promised or communicated and I'm not even reaching out to let you know like oh, yeah, by the way I'm i'm still like two or three hours away from being home.

 

And so you go from thinking like i'm I just need to hold on for another like 30 minutes until Brad gets home and then we can share the load to you still have everything on your plate for three, four more hours and just managing that expectation. That's just tough.

 

Monica Packer: Yeah. Yeah. That's bringing back some memories for sure.

 

Like different scenarios where it was like, could you have let me know that you weren't going to come? But I think you felt so bad about not being able to come. It like was one of those things that. It was almost like easier to pretend it wasn't happening, or

 

Brad Packer: Right, but it was also a Was it

 

Monica Packer: like you being negligent?

 

Brad Packer: Right, but it also was a poor, a poor shifting of priorities on my part. I was much more concerned about keeping work happy. Then I was keeping you happy, which is a terrible thing to say out, say out loud, but I was just more concerned about ensuring that I was taking care of business at work and that that everyone was happy with my performance and happy with my deliverables.

 

More so than ensuring my wife was happy with the way that our family was going in our marriage. And that I was making sure that she was taken care of. It was a really poor poor shifting of priorities on my part.

 

Monica Packer: Well, I mean, I don't want to get this all to like, Brad's a bad guy.

 

Cause you absolutely weren't. I think that's something you learn in a marriage is how to communicate better on both sides, right? Until, you know, Before it was like probably building up resentment and then me exploding and like, I never get time to myself while I slam the door and go on a run when you're supposed to be at work or something else like that.

 

I can think of that's a martyr moment for sure. I think probably another martyr moment was like, Our anniversary and how you had to go to work that day, or you weren't supposed to work and then all of a sudden you had, do you remember that moment?

 

Brad Packer: Yeah, no, I was expecting to have some time off during the holidays.

 

And then all of a sudden,

 

Monica Packer: because we got married December 28th, right? And so we're like,

 

Brad Packer: oh, okay, we're, we're, we're going to have some time off for the holidays and be able to finally

 

Monica Packer: have something

 

Brad Packer: for our anniversary. And then all of a sudden I realized, oh no, I think I may have to go in and. And work that whole week.

 

And it was unexpected and something that I just accepted once I got email communication, like, Oh, nevermind. I'm going in tomorrow and for the whole week. And I just remember you walking away and just being upset rightfully. So not just because all of a sudden I was having to go to work, but you knew that I could press back on that.

 

And if that was a priority, I priority, that's the weirdest way I've ever said that word that I could. Make that happen and say like, no, I, I'm not coming in or I'm going to do some stuff from home or like, this isn't what was communicated. But instead my initial reaction was, Oh, I will ask my wife and our family and our anniversary to take a backseat to, to work.

 

Monica Packer: Yeah. But I think what I was getting at more is like, I feel like how I responded to that, I remember just feeling, I think understandably too, just very mopey and very sad, but it was like all the years of feeling like I'd put myself last on the list just boiled up. Like here's one, we had one day plan, just one as a family, and we were supposed to go out for dinner and, and spend that time together.

 

And I just remember that resentment bleeding over in ways where I just wasn't handling that well. I would say. So yeah, there were moments like that, I would say, but also I don't know. I'm just, I guess I'm just trying to, I'm wanting to know how you saw me at that point. Like, or were we just both in our own lanes, just trying to do a good job with our own responsibilities that, that was kind of part of the problem is we weren't even really seeing each other because we were so burnt out.

 

Brad Packer: I think that's a lot of it just because we were around each other so little. Because I think that probably you thinking back on these, the bulk of these moments you were having were, I was alone were when you were alone was when I was, when I was at work or I was commuting or whatever the case may be.

 

And so you were handling those on your own. I wasn't there to witness them.

 

Monica Packer: You know, and this is funny for us to think about, because I mean, what I really wanted to know, Brad, like, what did you think about me? What did you see me doing? What were you, were you worried about me? But really that's, this is speaking to.

 

What happens when there isn't as part of having your, yourself on your own list, vocalizing your wants and needs and communicating that both ways. We didn't even have those discussions. Neither of us were on our personal lists. Like you were on your own list. I was on my own list, but we also weren't on each other's list.

 

So that is probably what I think affected us and our marriage the most is even though we were, I think we're pretty darn nice to each other. Like that's just who we are. That's who we tend to be as a couple too. Like we talk frankly, of course, but we're not a very high conflict marriage. Not that that means we have a good marriage.

 

Obviously you're hearing right now, like not having conflict was actually not good for us. about these things and being able to have more conflict, meaning conversation about the hard things like this is what has helped us get better. But that had to happen. I think from those kinds of moments on where it was like, no more like this is damaging.

 

I can't show up to you. I can't show up for our kids. If this is, if this is the way we are going to live for the next 30 years, like, plus that sounds like not a life that would be good for any of us. So I feel like when I think about self care, I'm going to talk more about TIFFs, specifically about self care, but for me at this time, I didn't even really know that's what I was doing.

 

All I knew is that I was trying to prioritize myself again, and as part of that, have hobbies or have interests to get to try new things, and then it gradually turned into like, Ways of supporting myself habit wise, like working to my sleep or making sure I was creative or journaling or day planning again.

 

And it just kind of became this giant, but very quiet, almost trickle down effect of how it, you know, spread out to all areas of my life. But to me, the foundation really was taking care of myself again in all those broad, but also specific ways. So I was curious about what you saw. Do you have any like moments where you could see like, Oh, she's on her list again.

 

Or and did you begin to see changes and how I was showing up to our family, even though we had minimal time together still for many years after that?

 

Brad Packer: No, I think, I think just even starting about progress where you had, you, you had what you envisioned there, what you wanted to do, what you wanted to communicate and how it started with the blog and eventually became the podcast.

 

So I'm like, Hey, I want to have a platform where I can. And you are, of course, a very gifted writer, a gifted communicator. And so you were able to

 

Monica Packer: I'm like, people can't see, but I'm like, no, because Brad's so good at those things. But anyway, keep going. Right.

 

Brad Packer: But I mean, you went from You know, all your communication was happening with toddlers and changing their diapers and, and cleaning up their messes and making sure that they were taken care of and doing so, right.

 

And doing so with a largely absent working husband, years of that to all of a sudden, like, no, I'm going to be doing blog posts where I write about stuff that means a lot to me. And then eventually like, you know, started the, started the feed, started the Instagram page and the blog. Right. The podcast. And so it was you putting yourself out there on stuff that you cared about and then engaging with and communicating with your community.

 

And so shifting you from just toddlers to actual human beings, I think started to shift you away from feeling like. You know, martyr Monica, for lack of a better, better terminology to doing something that mattered to you and that was meaningful and fulfilling.

 

Monica Packer: Yeah. I think if I could distill that down to something that I think all people can relate to it with is not, not like self care starting a platform or a podcast.

 

It's more like self care is taking time for yourself. Do you remember coming home to me painting this?

 

Brad Packer: Huh.

 

Monica Packer: Maybe you can, I mean, what do you remember about that moment? Like, to come home from work and I was, the house was probably a giant mess.

 

Brad Packer: Mm-hmm .

 

Monica Packer: Actually, I know it was

 

Brad Packer: because that

 

Monica Packer: was part of the trade off.

 

Right. Right. It's like the house was a little messier, but I was Sure. Happier, but, well,

 

Brad Packer: I, I think I saw it as, oh, she's painting and it's because she's putting herself first. She prioritized herself and is doing something she wanted to do and something that involves creativity and exploration and you know that the kids all slept fine that day and they ate and they Had their needs taken care of and if it wasn't like immediately done like that's totally fine if you're able to put yourself first

 

Monica Packer: Do you feel like you saw a different side of me in that moment or like the real me back in some ways?

 

Brad Packer: I think so. I mean just because I want to

 

Monica Packer: put words in your mouth I'm curious about why that because I asked this only let me just go jump ahead and come back to this I asked it because shortly after you bought me more.

 

Brad Packer: Oh

 

Monica Packer: And I thought like, Oh, maybe there was a reason for that.

 

Brad Packer: Well, no, I maybe just like, Hey, let's not make it a one time thing where you think like, okay, fulfillment taken care of now I got to be back to, to being a mom and taking care of the home.

 

It's like, no, you can, you can do those things again.

 

Monica Packer: So there must've been like some shift. And this is what I'm trying to like, I want, I'm, we haven't even talked about this before we're recording. It's just what, this is how people are getting it right now. So real is like, I, this is kind of good for us to discover.

 

Like maybe it wasn't something you could tangibly put your finger on, but were things feeling different and what ways were, what, if they were feeling different in what ways? Well, I

 

Brad Packer: think it's hard to like tie it to that. moment for me?

 

Monica Packer: Yeah, not exactly, but I just meant in general. Just

 

Brad Packer: the, yeah, just the process of more like, it felt like there was something else that you were able to do that was balancing your time that was more of a you priority than other priorities.

 

So you weren't feeling like it was. I'm just giving 100 percent of myself for everyone else and nothing's coming back to myself. Mm hmm.

 

Monica Packer: Yeah, I think that moment felt really defining for me, which is why I keep the painting there. Not because it's good, but because it reminds me of how I felt when I was doing it.

 

And like, when you came home and it kind of disrupted my flow in a, in like a good way, it helped me like stop and be like, Oh wait, like that feeling, like that was, that was me Embodying myself in a way that I haven't felt in a long time. Like it felt like an uncovered part of me that I hadn't accessed in a while.

 

And so that was something that it was just one of those little moments that made me feel like putting myself on the list. Wasn't hurting people that maybe it was helping me have more energy, actually like emotional, mental energy to show up. And there were probably things you didn't see, like me having a lot more patience with the kids.

 

I know that was better, me not making. As big of deal over small messes and small concerns with them, just having more patience overall because there was more there. Okay. I think we kind of went back there because again, I think it was so gradual too, that over time it became more things of like how to, you know, Take care of myself through habits and everything like that.

 

Anything else about that time? Okay. So now we're going to fast forward to, I think, is another pinnacle year for us. So if we're going every five years, oh no, what's happening in 2025. But Going back to 2020 I feel like that's when we hit, just like 2015 was my fork in the road for myself and putting myself on the list.

 

I feel like 2020 was our fork in the road for you doing that for you. Do you see it that way?

 

Brad Packer: I do think 2020 was, was pretty key and pretty pivotal just because I feel like it was the culmination of just feeling overwhelmed with what's at that point, it just been a lot of work.

 

Monica Packer: Yes. And years and years of devoted. Work where you didn't have any time for your family or yourself.

 

Brad Packer: And that I, I think I just, we just came to the realization of just how much priority and focus was on work with, you know, a balance to, to you and the family, but very little to me, if that's fair to say, and you know, there were years where that, that worked, that was fine.

 

But I think that it finally just caught up to us. I mean, we were 13 years in our marriage, 13 years in my career. And I just felt like my sole purpose in life was to be a provider and to ensure that our, you know, physical and monetary needs and shelter needs were taken care of. And that that was my duty and my mantra for the rest of my existence.

 

So it wasn't just like, oh, this is what I'm doing now. It was, this is, this is the next like 20, 30 years of my life. And then by the time I am able to step away, if I retire, it's going to be, you know, too late to enjoy anything. And so I think I just kind of fell into the mindset of just feeling like a martyr and feeling like, woe is me because all I'm doing is just sacrificing and giving it myself and not taking anything back in return, which is, which again, was my mindset.

 

It's not the reality, but I think that weighed on me and probably came to a head. Just because I, I probably was, you know, I was not pleasant to be around. I was easier to set off. I was easier to get like flustered and frustrated with the smallest things because whether deliberately mindful of this or not, I just felt like I, my, my lot in life is to work and provide and give them myself and take nothing back in return.

 

Monica Packer: And, you know, this speaks to a misconception I think we have out there. And in some ways I'm sure it is founded, but in other ways, It's less generous and accurate that all husbands out there just take and take and take. And that they just like dumb men just prioritize their own self care and hobbies and interests above all things without any regard to how it affects their family.

 

And while I'm going to be really blunt with everyone listening that it has been true for many of the clients I have worked with. It's not true for every family and the reverse problem of a martyr man in the husband position. And I know we're speaking very traditionally here, but that's the majority of our audience.

 

So. For you, you were like, you've always been a good guy, right? Very duty bound and diligent. And for some listening, that may sound like a giant humble brag.

 

Brad Packer: But you're the one saying it, not me. So, well,

 

Monica Packer: yeah, but I mean, the truth is any virtue taken too far turns into a vice. So just like my virtue of sacrificing for our family taken too far turned into a vice for our family, your same version of that.

 

Was doing the same thing. And from my perspective I could see it because I had been through it and I could like feel it and sense it from you. Because I had been through it too. So it wasn't like, what's wrong with you? It was like, I know exactly what is the problem and it's you literally do nothing for yourself.

 

And in part that was, you know, 2020, everyone had a terrible 2020, 2021, 2022. You were working from home. We were all living in my parents basement, which we were so fortunate to be able to do, but I was homeschooling the kids. And it just, it was every, all of the, The years of you not prioritizing yourself, I think built up to that moment of it just being in our face because you didn't have a second away from any responsibility of any kind.

 

And by that point, even though I was homeschooling and working just like, you know, you were doing the same things I had, I had learned by that point how to still prioritize myself. In the midst of that survival time, like going for walks in the early morning or reading books or having my do something list, you know, things like that.

 

Brad Packer: And I think another thing about 2020 is that, you know, it used to be, you know, I'd work a lot, but when I left the hospital. The office and came home. I was generally able to be away from work. And then that long

 

Monica Packer: dreaded commute was actually somewhat of a break. Yeah, it was,

 

Brad Packer: it was, yes, you're absolutely right.

 

And then as yes, as COVID hit and you know, everyone was working from home. Many may recall that it turned from. You step away from your job and you're done to, Oh, the computer's right there. So everyone's kind of accessible and everyone can kind of be working at a moment's notice. And so I found myself, you know, the normal time when I'd be stepping away from the office, getting on the train, going home and being done, I'd be, you know, working through dinner and then able to hop on right afterwards because I'm like, Oh, I'm right here.

 

And I know there's things to do. And it just, Seemed like all of a sudden there was no disconnecting from responsibility in any form.

 

Monica Packer: Well, yeah, because any second you did have that wasn't on a computer, we were all right there. And I was homeschooling the kids. So you would like try to help someone with math or help make lunch that day, or like put clothes on a naked toddler.

 

Like, you know, so there, there were no breaks, but I was still, I was better at somehow taking those, right. But you were not in that practice. And I think that's, that's what, that's where we hit the wall. And I think, yeah,

 

Brad Packer: it just got to the point where there, there was nothing that I was doing for myself.

 

And that that was, to your point, it was a virtue that had become a vice that being a good guy by serving others and trying to do

 

Monica Packer: and sacrifice,

 

Brad Packer: sacrifice in the end like does not

 

Monica Packer: anyone

 

Brad Packer: like you think it does. And you think that, like, as long as I'm just being completely selfless and servitude. It ends up blowing up in everyone's faces when you're not able to take care of yourself.

 

Monica Packer: And I think the thing that we had we had to have some, a series of tough conversations and it wasn't just 2020, right? It was 2020. It was a couple times in 2020. Actually, it was a couple times, probably in 2019, and then it was a couple times in 2021. Because that's what it takes, right? To really I think

 

Brad Packer: it's okay to say that these, the, the conversations and you kind of alluded that to them earlier is when you have just honest, blunt conversations of like proceeding forward like this in perpetuity doesn't work.

 

Like we do not want to be like this forever or even be like this another year, another, another couple of months. And so that. That helps put it in context for us of like, we, we need to make a change. We can't keep doing things the same way because we're not happy like this. We know that we have greater potential in our marriage and in our family and the ability to be happy.

 

And it's not going to happen if we are martyrs, if we're good guys, if we're not prioritizing ourselves and ensuring that we are doing okay individually, we can't do well collectively.

 

Monica Packer: And who said that

 

Brad Packer: you,

 

Monica Packer: okay. The reason I bring that up is because I've already shared, like, we're not a high conflict couple, but, but bringing that up and repeatedly what's the most loving thing I could do for our marriage is like force you to take a look at something that For many people out there would be like, what are you complaining about?

 

I'm like, you're too much of a good guy, you know, and that's hurting us. And I'm sure there may have been a part of you then not so much now. But maybe not, I don't know where you could feel defensive to that. Like, what do you mean I'm doing everything right? So how is this not good enough?

 

Brad Packer: Well, I think that's exactly why I needed to hear it because that was my reaction and my response of like, I'm doing, I'm doing everything that I think I should be doing.

 

And it's all for you. And it's all for the family. I needed you to, to, to be able to bring me to that reality so that I could realize like, no, it's not that that's not what's needed.

 

Monica Packer: Well, and I think it was us having to talk about how. Being a quote unquote good guy in this way was actually hurting us all.

 

Brad Packer: Right.

 

Monica Packer: Right? That being the good guy who always sacrifices, never takes time for himself, never asks me, Monica, for anything, was actually hurting us all.

 

Brad Packer: Right. I needed to hear that.

 

Monica Packer: So I feel like one word could distill all of how it felt for me when I was in the thick of it, for you when you were in the thick of it, what I'm sure you felt for me, what I felt from you and it's resentment, like how even nobody had to say it, it could be felt, right?

 

Brad Packer: Right. No, I think that's totally true.

 

Monica Packer: And I think that honestly was what made me have those conversations is you're doing all the right things, but not for the right reasons. It's about, you know, being the good guy instead of actually being yourself. So anyway, thanks for sharing about that because those are tough conversations.

 

Brad Packer: But they're important. And

 

Monica Packer: it's also indicative of how we take on challenges. And, and I think that's how we balance each other out. I'm a little bit more. You know, grab, grab the bull by its horns and you're a little bit more, let's just run away from the bull and pretend it doesn't find us. But then we come and meet in the middle and work on it.

 

And, and gradually that became about you prioritizing yourself. So in the beginning, what did that look like or not look like?

 

Brad Packer: I think at first, I think at first, and this was where you were just so helpful. It was giving myself permission to, to put myself first.

 

Monica Packer: I feel like even that word is triggering for people because they think putting yourself first means you don't have anything else on your list.

 

Right. But yeah, but I hear what you're saying. I think

 

Brad Packer: it has, it had to be worded that way because of how I, how

 

Monica Packer: off the list right.

 

Brad Packer: That I acted before that where it was something as simple as like, go, just go do anything for yourself. Like have fun. In short, like have a passion, have something that takes your time, have something that you do.

 

that is outside of normal responsibilities that allows yourself to unwind, unplug and feel some sort of fulfillment.

 

Monica Packer: Yeah.

 

Brad Packer: And so it started as, I mean, you, you suggested all,

 

Monica Packer: well, I'll say in the beginning I was like, please put yourself first, like ahead of me, ahead of the kids, like, please, like we need you to be first so we can get you back.

 

Brad Packer: Right. And it was in the thing that you were throwing out things like Like go, go to a movie, like get people and go watch movies. You like movies. And I, and I, in my head and even out loud and say like that, that does not sound fun to me. Like, that's not what I want to do, but you were helpful in making suggestions on like, go get, like, go get a burger, go drive, go for a drive, like go do anything, write a book, right.

 

Or, or watch a movie, watch a show. And, and I pushed back on it partially because I don't know, like maybe I, I felt like, well, don't tell me what to do. Like all, all. Figure something out, or I probably was still so stuck in the good guy phase that I'm like, no, I'm just going to keep plowing ahead and do it and what I'm doing, because that's how I'm going to benefit the family.

 

But the short of it is it became running. Is that fair to say?

 

Monica Packer: Yeah.

 

Brad Packer: Which

 

Monica Packer: I think you allowed yourself in the beginning because it still felt like somehow being responsible, right?

 

Brad Packer: Cause it's still his work.

 

Monica Packer: It's also like everybody, everybody needs to exercise, right? Like that's something that you should be doing.

 

So at first I think it became like, Well, I guess I can justify this to myself. Right,

 

Brad Packer: right. Like I can have a passion if it, if it is work, which, which kind of sounds dumb saying it out loud, but I mean, it turned into something good. I mean, we're probably four years out from when I first started, like, Really running.

 

Like we had done, like

 

Monica Packer: you ran a lot before, but it would just be when you're training for like a half, once a year, if

 

Brad Packer: I signed up for something, I would get out and run, but it

 

Monica Packer: was,

 

Brad Packer: yeah, but it was January, 2021 when I just decided on a Saturday, like I'm going to go out and run like every week now and, and whether I'm signed up for anything, I'm just going to go out and go for a run.

 

And so I ran 10 miles on a Saturday and then I decided I'm going to run 10 miles every Saturday, no matter what. And, you know, four years in, I've probably missed a Saturday 10 mile run, like, less than 10 times. And it's usually when I'm like, Recovering from something or, or I just ran a race the week before, but.

 

Monica Packer: And now we're trying, I'm trying to get you to not run 10 miles just for your body, like every Saturday, like maybe not 10 miles every Saturday. But you know, what we're

 

Brad Packer: running's turned into for me is just, it's, it's. fun for me. I look forward to it. It's, it's enjoyable. I get to listen to podcasts. I get to plan out the routes that I'm going to do.

 

I get to set goals and work towards them. You get to be outside. I mean, which is,

 

Monica Packer: you get to listen to your own stuff. Yeah.

 

Brad Packer: And, and, and it just feels like something that I look forward to and it's something I found fulfillment in. And then I sign up for races and I get to work towards them. And then, and so it's become me putting myself.

 

First is getting out and running. And it's been, it's been, I think probably what's brought me

 

Monica Packer: back or

 

Brad Packer: brought me away from the precipice of being a good guy, Brad, and possibly like destroying our marriage. And, Now being a, getting us to the point where we're, we're happy and fulfilled and, and feeling like we're on the same team instead of roommates.

 

Monica Packer: Yeah. True ship passing in the night, like we were for many, many years too. And so, and you know, we, we definitely need to talk through some general tips. we're going to do that in a moment, but I will say yeah, I think running has been your main form of self care and I love how gradually over the years, it's given you a way to with more ease over time, request, me to be put out to support you.

 

So like when you're like, I mean, I think 2021 was a year. I was like, please put me out. Like, I don't care what time of day it is. Like, I don't care how stressed out I am. I will tell you if it's too much, just ask and I will support you. Take over and just get out and it's enabled you to, you didn't really do that.

 

Well, the first doing that, even it was just more of a Saturday thing, but gradually it's become more of like a, Hey, I'm going to go running at four today. Good. Great. So happy. Thank you for doing it. So you've learned how to do that more. In, in ways that inconvenience me that I'm so thrilled to do because I already do that to you too.

 

And we're going to talk about that as part of the tip, right? But we're going to say,

 

Brad Packer: I have thoughts, but how about we take the break and then we'll talk about hearing tips.

 

Monica Packer: And one thing I'll say though, before the break is what I'm hopeful of though, is that this running has taught you how to put yourself on the list and ways that can transcend.

 

Just this particular hobby. So maybe it can trickle out to other areas in your life too, over time. But I'm so glad because I think it's shown that it doesn't take that much either. Like it, even if it's just one small way, you can have yourself on the list that there are incredible outcomes for that, for yourself and for your family.

 

Brad Packer: I

 

Monica Packer: mean, cause at first my list of suggestions were very long and it really just took finding one thing. One thing. Okay. So we'll give some more of our tips coming up after a quick break for our sponsors.. Welcome back. Before we dig into our tips, I just kind of wanted to give a little general overview, kind of a refresher, if you will. Although we'll share links in a little while, I'll tell you more about that near the end of the episode on more that you can listen to where I've taught these concepts, but self care.

 

You know, as I said in the beginning of the episode, it can often be taken as pampering, but really self care is as simple as what we've talked about, putting yourself on the list. For some people, that is going to look like hobbies. For some people, it's going to look like bubble baths. For some people, it's going to look like creating an art piece, or leaning into their creativity, or doing crafts.

 

For other people, it's going to look like taking a nap in the afternoon, or journaling, or meditating. It's, it's respecting yourself by caring for yourself. There are three levels for me that I like to categorize them as self care occurs in basic ways, in deep ways, and in indulgent ways and basic ways you're thinking of the classic boring habits, like hygiene and sleep and movement, things that just help you be able to cope in your day to day life and show up in those ways.

 

And then deep are. The ways that we care for our soul needs. And that's where like journaling or spiritual practices can, can come into play. Also therapy is a great form of deep self care other forms of deep self care can maybe not look deep on the outset, but be very deep. Like meditation or going for a hike, like connecting with friends, like anything like that.

 

So it's pretty subjective. And the final category is indulgent. And that's things like painting your nails or going out on a girl's night with friends or putting on a mask and doing your own spa night. And again, we're often just skipping to the indulgent, but both the, the Indulgent and the deep levels actually will act as band aids to open wounds if basic self care isn't being taken care of.

 

So if your sleep is really lacking you're not moving your body, you're not nourishing your body things like that, then Then you don't have what it takes to even have the deep and indulgent forms of self care actually have an effect. Otherwise, they just kind of weep on through. It just is still letting things in.

 

So if people need to start anywhere, it's with the basic self care. And actually when I look back on our stories, I, I, Do you see that in other ways? Like I started working on my sleep, as I mentioned. And, and, and you worked on that as well, Brad, once we moved here. That was one thing, like, you know, we talked about like, Hey, make sure you're taking care of yourself in these ways first.

 

And that was better too. So anyway, that's all just a quick overview. But I did want to share, and this isn't tongue in cheek, even though it may sound like it, and it's not meant to be angry either. Although it may sound like it. When I'm helping women. A lot of the women that I hear from in our community, and a lot of the women that I work with, with my one on one coaching clients, have had the same obstacle. The biggest obstacle is often their partner and spouse. So one word to say that is marriage.

 

And this is where we are going to like, talk about some tips here, Brad and I. Okay. But I will say learning how to prioritize your self care will require some shifts to your household, likely. And those shifts will likely demand some communication and perhaps even loving conflict. In order for it to happen.

 

And as we shared with Brad, this doesn't mean you're taking four hours a day for yourself. This may mean you're taking 30 minutes for yourself one to three times a week. So it's not like we're turning over your own, your whole household, but at the same time, it does require a shift and any shift like that tends to be.

 

Challenging. So do you have any tips off the top of your head, Brad? Or do you want me to kind of ask some of the questions I had here in mind that kind of rotate with the tips?

 

Brad Packer: I have a couple of things that came to mind, at least for my situation and they may apply to others. I think the biggest thing for me is first I had to recognize that I needed to make a change.

 

Monica Packer: And you're talking about in terms of your prioritizing your own self care.

 

Brad Packer: Yeah. I needed to realize that I needed to do self care. Before I went about doing self care, if that makes any sense. Okay.

 

Monica Packer: So this is good advice for the husbands or the spouses who are like in that camp of being like the low self care person.

 

Right.

 

Brad Packer: And if they're being martyrs and kind of thriving on only giving and not taking, they need to realize they need to make a change. And that may need to come through hard conversations. They may need to hear it from their spouse to get knocked to that reality. So that may be, may need to be what happens.

 

Monica Packer: Can I tag along to that, Tim?

 

Brad Packer: Eve

 

Monica Packer: Rothsky has shared about this and has shared about this in her book, Fair Play, that most partners need a change maker. And that's some, someone who's willing to raise their hand and say things need to change. But when I talked through this with other women, you know, meeting my clients, the goal is to not.

 

Like, Hey, let's ruin our lives or let's disrupt every part of our lives. It's more about what is the most loving thing I can do. And that means having hard conversations, but from a place of love and a desire to make our marriage better. And then, you know, we can think about what that looks like, but yeah, a change maker and, and that oftentimes requires, it always requires, I would say probably more than one conversation.

 

Brad Packer: Yeah. My next tip comes from Bluey, because all great counsel comes from Bluey. Yes. But there was an episode where Chilly, the mom, has been, you know, with Bluey and Bingo all day, and then the dad comes home. And I forget the exact verbatim of how she words it, but she clearly is a little, she needs a break.

 

And so she says to, she says to Bandit, quietly so that the kids can't hear, I need 20 minutes to myself where no one bothers me.

 

Monica Packer: Yeah.

 

Brad Packer: And then, and that's it. And so, I think that, we've kind of alluded to it, but just ask and receive, like, in your marriage, find a cadence where you're able to ask when you need time for yourself.

 

And in my cases, like, I, I sometimes need to get out and just get out and go for a run and it's not at the most opportune time of the day. It might be when I should be helping with the kids or getting dinner ready or whatever the case may be. Okay. And. We communicate that and I ask, and then you let me know if like, yeah, go for it.

 

And most of the time you do say yes, get out and run, go for it. Or like, can we have you do that later? Because I need to help with this, but having that ability to ask and knowing that in return, your spouse can do the same as saying like, Hey, I just, I need 20 minutes to myself where no one bothers me or I need to be able to put myself on the list.

 

By doing this thing, can you cover for me? And then if you have that back and forth, you're much more willing to ask for it. If you know, your spouse is going to ask for it as well, and that you can cover for each other.

 

Monica Packer: Yeah, that there's that give and take that I think is really nice. It's like a reciprocal thing.

 

It's not one sided or it shouldn't be. And if it is, that's where, you know, someone needs to be the change maker or. You know, I, I think in the years of me waiting for you to recognize that, and then to follow through with it, I had to still live it out myself. I couldn't wait for you to prioritize yourself in order for me to but hopefully do so in ways that weren't hugely disruptive, but still more of a model.

 

What else would you say?

 

Brad Packer: Last one, start small.

 

Monica Packer: Yeah.

 

Brad Packer: You don't need to know that your way of putting yourself first is starting about progress or starting to run a lot. A lot. A lot. It can be just kind of like you said, like take a half hour and just do something for yourself.

 

Monica Packer: Yeah.

 

Brad Packer: It can be whatever.

 

It can be nothing. It can literally be just go in the room and scroll on your phone.

 

Monica Packer: Yeah. And we've done that too, where we're like, I need to check out.

 

Brad Packer: Yes. Can you handle bedtime or whatever the case may be? So. Just start small. But I feel like if you get in the habit of putting yourself on the list and your spouse is able to cover for you and you, you have that partnership and that give and take that you're going to eventually be able to use that time for.

 

What you really want to do.

 

Monica Packer: Those are great tips. I actually think that's, those are the ones that matter the most. I'll just recap it for everyone. It's what does it recognize? You need to change, ask and receive

 

Brad Packer: and start

 

Monica Packer: small. Great tips, Brad. Can I ask just a final, like what would, how, how would a wife communicate if we're thinking about this and that in the traditional way, right?

 

How would a wife. Better communicate her needs to her husband, like about her own self care needs. What would you recommend? Not, not shouting. I never get time to myself and slamming a door. Not that

 

Brad Packer: this is tough just because everyone's, everyone's marital dynamic is different because my, my initial instinct is I think it's important to have the conversation and maybe you set it up by saying like, hey, let's go on a date, we're gonna have a fun date and then we're just gonna have a conversation about balance and how things are going because I feel like I need a little bit extra help right now or I need a little more time where I feel like I'm able to Ground myself by, by having me time, but I want to have that conversation with you so I can get your thoughts and opinions on it.

 

Before we kind of decide how we want to move forward. And so you at least plant that seed of like, this is, it's, it's a hard conversation, but it's not a bad conversation. It's a good one. And that you guys can both come out of it feeling good about how you can prioritize yourselves and each other, but you need to make time for it.

 

So, you know, that conversation can happen.

 

Monica Packer: That's great advice, Brad.

 

Brad Packer: And if you're able to, you know, Tie it to something fun like a date or, or going on a drive or going on a walk so that it's not just like a, let's, let's sit down and talk about how unhappy I am and how much more work I need you to do so I can have time for myself.

 

No, tie it into something fun, but make it known that like, Hey, I think this is an important conversation. I'd really appreciate if you show up for it. So that you can hear me out because I think that we'll be better for it.

 

Monica Packer: And as part of that, I think setting it up as like you know, they're already doing things for themselves to say, like, I love that you do that.

 

I want you to do it. And I would like to do that too. Or can you support me in, in doing that for myself? I'm realizing I, when I see you doing that, like I need that too. And I want that too. Or if they're not like, Hey, let's make this something we're both prioritizing better for each other. And I guess that's my final, like, Hey, any insight.

 

Let's say there's a, there's a wife like me, who's married to a good guy like you, but they're, you know, the good guy has been taken too far for too long. How could she break that down in a way that, I mean, I guess it's not like, it's not like the script. We're not asking for a script, but what would you say would be helpful for that good guy spouse to, to be open to listening or to, to hear this?

 

Brad Packer: I mean, part of me is it's, it's a hard conversation. And I think that what brought us back was just me understanding the severity of what the status quo would be.

 

Monica Packer: Yeah. You know what? We didn't really get too clear on that. I think the way I had to show up to those conversations was one love. Two, this is how it is.

 

And three, this is how it will be. Yeah. If it continues that way, like, and it wasn't like, Hey, ultimatum, you don't change I'm out. It was more like, Hey, do either of us want to live like this for the next 30, 40, 50 years? No, we want more. We want better.

 

Brad Packer: So, so it's almost like the, what, what's that dumb, but

 

Monica Packer: things have to change the

 

Brad Packer: terminology of like the good news sandwich.

 

Monica Packer: Oh yeah. So I think

 

Brad Packer: if you have a good guy, husband. And if you come in saying like, Hey, like, I know you think you're doing a good job. By prioritizing the family and, you know, working and not taking time for yourself, but it's actually detrimental and damaging to us and it needs to change. Like wording it that way is probably going to cause the, the husband to get defensive.

 

But I mean, you almost, you almost got a sweet talking, which is dumb because we were fragile, but saying like, Hey, I, I see all these things you do, you work so hard, you do X, Y, Z for the family and here's what you do for the kids. Here's what you do for me. And we so appreciate it. It goes. It doesn't go unrecognized but what we're also seeing is that because you're focused so much on doing what you think you should do instead of taking care of yourself, it, it's weighing on you and we think that it's, it's hard and it's a, it's a big burden for you to carry.

 

And so we'd really like, and then lead into the discussion on how to, how to prioritize yourself, how to, how to put yourself first, how to. Show up better in your marriage and then ending it with the other side of the good news sandwich by yeah If I again recognizing the good things they're doing and saying hey, I think if we make this change Here's here's the the ways in which I think it's gonna help improve our marriage.

 

It's gonna make you happier It's gonna make the family better

 

Monica Packer: The only thing I would add to that is to get specific where required to get specific about here's what we're seeing. Here's how it's feeling. Like, so I see you doing, like, I see the resentment coming out this way. This is how it feels on our end.

 

You know, so be a little bit more specific as needed and also being specific about what you need to see change. Not like, hey, be a different person overnight. Bye. It's like, hey, I need to see you asking me to go on runs or like telling me that you're going somewhere. I need to see you doing things. And I guess at the end of the day, there's probably one other big thing and it's therapy.

 

Like just everyone needs help learning how to communicate, whether it's how to have less conflict or more conflict. We've had a whole, we've had a therapist on about that, that whole idea. Trevor forgot his name, but it was a great episode.

 

Brad Packer: I'm sure it was Monica.

 

Monica Packer: About like, you know, not all conflict is bad.

 

It's actually good. So anyway. Get, get some support that way. Learn how to have better conflict and communication because we, that's something that's still an ongoing work in progress is doing that for ourselves. But Hey, we're 17 years in. Feels better than. It feels better than ever.

 

Brad Packer: Ooh. One more tip.

 

Monica Packer: Yeah.

 

What is it?

 

Brad Packer: I'm girls night and guys nights. Yeah. I think that one of the, one of the best separate time. Yeah. One of the best things for, for Monica, probably during those really rough years is when she forgot,

 

Monica Packer: I forgot about this is

 

Brad Packer: she would go with two of her best friends to cheesecake factory for like

 

Monica Packer: 10 hours

 

Brad Packer: and they would, they would get their booth and they would be there for hours.

 

And even then I'm like, that's. I was so happy when you would do that, and I think that the husbands were as well, because you guys, it was, it was rejuvenating for you.

 

Monica Packer: Yeah.

 

Brad Packer: And it was the chance for you guys to just talk, and you know, husbands are great, but girlfriends are better. And just being able to connect, and talk about everything that was going on, and the struggles that you were going through I felt like it was, it was a great thing for you.

 

And then, For me, yeah, like getting together with the guys, going out and like grabbing a milkshake or whatever, just being able to have your separate go off and do things with your friends. And I don't know, I just felt like that was, that was a little bit of a boost.

 

Monica Packer: I think you're totally right. And I also think we need to do a better job of that now.

 

Brad Packer: Well, we don't have friends.

 

Monica Packer: I know. Well, I'm antisocial, I think, but also I did do that on Friday. Brad was really proud of me. I got out and went to like a collage night with a friend and it was really good. And I, and I remembered, so we'll work on that next. We'll let you guys know how it goes. Anyway, I think we can just end by saying thank you, Brad, for being so willing to talk, and thank you all for listening, and just remember that self care isn't selfish, it helps you have a self to give from.

 

Okay.

 

I hope this episode gave you the hug and kick in the pants you need to grow. In lieu of progress pointers, since this tended to be more of a conversation, I'm going to give you a do something challenge, and then I will give you a little bit of an extra homework assignment that can give you more takeaways and ways to take action.

 

The do something challenge is to share this episode with your spouse and or partner. It can be as simple as that, maybe as a good conversation starter between the two of you or something to connect on. Your extra homework assignment is to check out other episodes from About Progress that go really well with this topic of self care.

 

There's a big variety there and I think they're all going to help you, but even if you choose one or two, I think that's the way to go. That's all linked for you in the show notes. And one more optional thing to consider is join the Sticky Habit Intensive. You heard about it earlier in this episode. I will likely only host one to two intensives this year, thanks to me writing a book and all the work that that will entail, especially this coming fall as I'm preparing to launch it.

 

Fingers crossed, hopefully then. So make sure if you really want to prioritize your self care via the Supportive Habits, and you want to do so in a new way and in a supportive environment and with a friend to join you for free, sign up for the Sticky Habit Intensive

 

by Friday, February 21st. This show is listener supported. Members of the Supporters Club get access to three levels of exclusive benefits, from more time to more content with me. My favorite benefit is more personal. My private premium. Always Afri podcast, where I lean into the personal side of personal development.

 

And Brad appears on one episode a month with me and the marriage movie club, where we take back our hobby of watching and talking movies together. So it's fun that you get that too, as part of those episodes, you can check out becoming a supporter and the three levels by going to aboutprogress. com.

 

Slash support. You can always support the show for free, make sure you have subscribed or have followed the show, listen to the episodes, share them with your friends, leave a rating and review. Any of those things really is vital to the continuation of this work. Thank you so much for listening. Now go and do something with what you learned today.

 

And would you guess what that obstacle is, Brad?

 

Brad Packer: I, why don't you tell me? Sorry,

 

Monica Packer: we talked about it before I recorded. I know.

 

Brad Packer: And I'm realizing in the moment that I've forgotten it. So that's why I'm sorry.

 

Monica Packer: Well, I'll just, I'll edit that out.