How to Prioritize What Matters Without Burning Out || with Greg McKeown

In this episode, I dive deep into a fascinating conversation with Greg McKeown, the bestselling author of "Essentialism" and "Effortless." Greg and I explore the concept of making life's essentials easier and more manageable. We discuss how the hustle culture often leads to burnout and how we can find a better way to prioritize what truly matters.

We also touch on the importance of trade-offs, especially for women who often feel overwhelmed by responsibilities. Greg shares practical tips on how to make relaxation and rest a priority, a concept he calls 'relaxation as a responsibility.' You'll hear valuable insights on improving your most important relationships and making life feel less like a constant struggle. Tune in and learn how to make your essential tasks effortless and your life more fulfilling.

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TRANSCRIPT  

 

Monica Packer: Hi. This is Monica Packer and you are listening to about progress where we are about progress made practical. We are just a little over a month into our summer season, and I have to tell you the one defining word I could use to describe how it has felt for me is this grumpy. Because that's what I am.

I have [00:01:00] been a very grumpy gorilla, as we often say in our household to describe certain children. But lately it's been me and I've realized lately that my grumpiness comes also down to one word or phrase even, and that's trade offs. It's because all day, every day I have to grapple making trade-offs between what matters and even with what matters.

How to do so in a way that isn't unrealistic. Even down to the ways I feed my kids to how we're spending our time together to the chores we do around the house. This is why today I am very eager to share an interview I recorded and aired back in 2023 with Greg McKeown. It was such a thrill to get a yes from him.

He was probably my biggest yes. Yet up to that point. All thanks to a progress in our community, by the way, Rebecca, thank you. And. Getting him on the show was not only a dream come true, it was also [00:02:00] so practical and, , very relevant to my life and to this audience as well. And the thing I love the most about it is Greg told me off the air, and we alluded to it in the interview that.

He essentially has written these books with his wife in mind. He knows what it's like for us to grapple making trade-offs all day, every day, and trying to decide between what matters and even with what matters. In what ways do those things matter. This interview is primarily about his book Effortless, which is how to make essential things easier, and I think it's very timely for the summer season.

Before I share that, we're gonna do a quick sponsor, but also know this is back when I was experimenting with music, doing bridges like that. So I don't really love the music I did as the Bridges, but hey, you live and learn. You listen to old episodes, you see the things you've already evolved away from.

But we're gonna keep it all as is for you, and I hope you enjoy hearing the mess of the [00:03:00] progress that I've made too as a podcaster because the interview still shines thanks to Greg.

I remember reading Essentialism for the first time while we were on a giant getaway to a cabin with our friends and all of our kids. I was bunkering down in this dark room with a sleeping baby and I was trying to guard him from getting woken up by older kids who were also in the same room. And while I was guarding him, I opened up my Kindle and I began to read this book that changed so much for me.

In that moment, I even could not stop reading it so much so that I ended up missing a lot of the fun that adults were having outside the room, but it was okay. From Greg Mccuen's masterpiece, I learned how to pare down my life to what mattered most. It was an empowering relief for me, especially in a world where I felt like people were far more likely to promote, hustling, to have it all, pretending, doing it all didn't lead to burnout.

While this book [00:04:00] influenced me so much, I found that even after essentializing my life, my responsibilities still outweighed my ability to uphold them in a way that felt easy to maintain. Burnout still seemed to loom around the corner. So imagine my huge relief to read Greg's latest book Effortless and see that even he, as a creator of this movement, found himself similarly spread too thin with his carefully chosen priorities.

Essentialism. Choosing what matters most over what matters less is still life changing, but after you answer the question, what is essential, Greg now knows that. Next you must answer. How can I make what is essential, effortless? It turns out that even what we prioritize need to be simplified even further in order to avoid the dreaded burnout.

Today, we are so thrilled to have Greg [00:05:00] McKeown on the show. He'll share how to both prioritize and ease what matters most in your life, from your responsibilities to your relationships, and how rest. Yes, I said rest must, must, must be one of those prioritized responsibilities. Greg is the author of Essentialism and Effortless and a podcaster at the top rated what is Essential podcast.

He's a father of four and husband to Anna, and he consults prestigious businesses and people all over the world. And today he is here for us, this little podcast because our audience is essential to him, an audience of real women. Leaving real lives that matter. So very much.[00:06:00]

Thank you so much for joining us on about Progress. Oh, it is so nice to be with you. Thank you. Well, it's a huge honor. Your first book. Uh, often is described as life changing, and it was for me, essentialism. It's, it's the book I read every year and it helps people understand what matters most, and it's so clarifying.

But even you found as the, the head of this thought movement that really took the world by storm even, you struggled with living that out because it turns out there are a lot of really important essential things. So how did you come to knowing that? What was next was to better help people work through all what was important for them.

Greg McKeown: Well, I'm, I, I wanna answer that question and, but, but first I want to connect with something I think that's really important, which is that I sort of in secret wrote the both Essentialism and the new book Effortless for [00:07:00] the people who listen to your podcast. Really? And, and yes, because. The heart of both of them.

This is really literally true. It's not, it's not like a little line. It's, it's, was was, I, I, the, the first version of Essentialism was a book written for a different publisher. We never went very far with it. Uh, and it was called something different at that time, but it was years before. And, and it was to, to a publisher that had the audience primarily of women aged, let's say 35 to 55, who are dealing with all of the.

The, just the unbelievable challenges and responsibilities of, of that, that stage in life. There's always this core of it. That is, you know, the, these, the people listening right now, the people who feel stretched too thin at work or at home feel busy, but not necessarily productive, feel their [00:08:00] diet, they is endlessly hijacked by other people, uh, within their own families often, right?

Yes. I mean, children, yes. Capping on us all the time. Mine feels crazy by the end of the day. I mean, that's, that's who it's to. And it's not just that 'cause the, it's not just because these, you know, the people listening to this happen to have that struggle and I happen to want to address those challenges.

It's because this, the people listening like you right now, who are listening to this conversation right now matters so much, so much more disproportionately than is obvious. So much more than is. Is clearly stated in modern life and, and, and so now coming full circle from there to the question you asked is just, is just after writing essentialism and trying to live it to, and struggling with it and failing with it and so on, it, it, it, it became clear to me that.

My life, and I'm sure people can relate to this, that sometimes in life it's [00:09:00] just like I, yeah. I, I've stripped out the non-essentials, but the essentials alone more than I can possibly do. Yeah. And as soon as you face that and every responsible woman does all the time, I mean, that's sort of life. That's where.

That's where Effortless, the new book begins. And I didn't write it because I thought life is effortless. I wrote it because I know full well that life approximates suffering for almost everybody, almost all the time. That was true in my life. But it's true in other people's lives and that's why, uh, uh, effortless Deserve to be born.

Monica Packer: And even that word, I mean it sounds almost too good to be true. You know, you just kind of hear effortless and you think, well, who's that for? And I love that you're saying, this is for you. This is for, this is exactly who it's for. It's for the people who have too much good things to do, especially with the, the word to use responsibilities.

That's actually a huge word in our community, is [00:10:00] because we feel both the honor of it and the overwhelming impossibility. Of them all, you know? Well, I mean, you, your, your reaction to that was the same reaction my wife Anna had when I first pitched this idea. Now, now, to be really, to be a member of my, to my immediate family is to be, uh, semi employed.

Greg McKeown: In, in brainstorming book titles and subtitles. Yeah, I, I obsess around that more than I would say the, maybe even the average author. And so I could do it right now. I could walk into any room with any person, child, teenager, my wife, and just say a word. And they would know what I was talking about. I would just say, what about this?

And they'd be like, yeah, I kind of like that. No, that's, I don't get it. I don't know. And they just get immediate reaction. And, and Anna's only ever concern about Effortless was like, this is just unreachable, you know, too much. Hmm. And I, I weighed that up a lot and, and I mean, there was an [00:11:00] alternative subtitle for Effortless was because not everything has to be so hard.

Monica Packer: Yeah. And there was something about that. I'd put that out one time on social media and somebody responded. A a a woman had responded and she said, I feel seen when I hear that phrase. Hmm. And, and that's the, you know, again, that's the heart of this is like, if life were effortless, there's no justification to write a book called that.

Greg McKeown: Yeah. There's a group of people. I reckon people listening to this know exactly what I'm talking about. There's a group of people, let's call 'em the, the the in the hit squad. This is the hardworking, intelligent, talented group of people, and they have learned by experience and by culture and so on, that the way to better results is to push harder.

I. And, and they, not only that, they want better results. I mean, maybe it's a businessy way of saying it, but it's like they want 10 x results, much better results for, for, than their own lives, for their own health, for their, for their children, for, for their family, for friends. I mean, they want [00:12:00] much better results, but that's where it starts to get complicated.

Like what I'd say the 10 x dilemma dilemma, because no one in the hit squad, no one listening to this can work 10 times harder. Hmm, you want 10 times better results and you've been taught that the only way to get better results is to work harder. And then you think, okay, well the only way to get it is by 10 x hard work.

Then either you give up on essential important things before you begin. 'cause it's, of course you can't do that. Or you say, well, I can't do it, but I have to sacrifice. You know, I have to give more. It's so important. I'll just, and, and you end up sort of killing off the asset that is you. More of your sleep, more of your sanity.

You know, they, they can't, if they can't see me, if they can't value me, you know, then I'm fine. I won't value myself. I'll You approach burnout all the time. Yep. And, and so then every request of you is like a pound of flesh. You know, and, and, and [00:13:00] actually you are kind of killing yourself off and they are killing you off.

And it is real. I mean, I think that there's only two kinds of people in the world right now. Maybe there's only two kinds of women listening to this right now. Group one is are the women listening to this who are burned out? And then the other group is the group who know they are burned out. Yeah. Maybe that's it.

And, and mm-hmm. If you get the second category, then you can do something about it. And, and I'm just trying with Effortless and with Essentialism to try to help people in exactly that situation say, okay, maybe there are ways to break through to higher contribution without burning out. You know, there's a different way to do life.

That is not what we've been maybe taught or heard in the culture or hustle culture and all these things that get emphasized. But, but, but you actually can, but it's a different way and it's a different way that's been sold to us thus far. Mm-hmm.[00:14:00]

Monica Packer: And I think that definitely comes to mind with motherhood in general. You know, you're just kind of sold both a bill of goods, but also a bill of built-in expectations of what the responsibilities are. And they're massive. And this is for every parent, but motherhood is a little bit different. The amount of pressure that is aggrandized by both like the martyr mother culture, like we're more celebrated, the more that we have lost ourselves.

And sacrificed ourselves, which means, as you know, we have nothing to give from that burnout. Or there's the other pendulum swing where. We never feel like we can do enough. So we're finding both of those at the same time. So if you had that in mind, what would you say to the woman who, you know, maybe they, they've read essentialism and they're familiar with your work there, trying to be more essential, which I think is the first half of what they need to do.

Yep. [00:15:00] And then from there, how does, what would effortless look like for them from there? Yeah, I mean, let's, let's just start with something really, uh, really simple and easy on this, and it's, it's to invert and what I mean by it is that, is that insecure overachievers Hmm. Mothers or otherwise? Mm-hmm. I think that we've kind of covered this, but that you have to solve things through just more effort, pushing harder, doing more, sacrificing more.

Greg McKeown: In fact, sacrificial is the only righteous path in life's, let's say. And of course sacrifice has a raw, I'm not advocating selfishness in anything, but there's also an unhealthy way to take these things, and that is, that's who I'm speaking to. Mm-hmm. And, and what you can do. Let's, let's stay invert. Maybe people could remember George Costanza in, in Seinfeld where he has that episode.

Do you remember the episode where the do everything opposite? Oh yeah, of course. [00:16:00] Right? Yeah. So he's, he's a to failure his whole life, and then he is like, maybe I should just do the opposite of my own intuition. I should just do the opposite and everything starts working for him. Yeah. In the same way.

That's what I mean by invert. It's almost like a mindset shift. Anything you are doing. Any new project, any new request, anything you believe is essential. So the first question, is it essential? Is it non-essential? If it's non-essential, let's not do it. If it's essential, then you have a second question.

Okay, am I making this harder than it needs to be, or is there an effortless way to achieve this? There's A-A-A-B-Y-U manager who I was having a sort of a impromptu coaching conversation with, who is the kind of person who stays up till 4:00 AM in the morning, photoshopping for the young women's group the next day, and, and no one's asking her to do that.

No one is expecting her to do that. That is, and yet she thinks that's the only way to do better. She, she's, she said to me, I feel guilty if [00:17:00] I eat lunch. Wow. But if I stop for lunch, not if I take time out for lunch. If I eat lunch, I feel guilty. See, I mean, that's what we're talking about. That's where, that's where a whole approach and mindset is, uh, that that's.

Not only to diminishing returns, it's like negative returns. So you, you're gonna make everything worse. You are gonna burn out yourself, then burn out your relationships. I mean, that isn't gonna work in anything like the long run. Well, I said to her like, invert, ask a different question. And that's really what I'm getting to a specific new question.

Don't ask, how can I just. Make this happen. Push harder, give more, sacrifice more. You say, how can I make it effortless to achieve this outcome? That was the code. That was it. That's the question. Now, what happens is that she gets a call from a professor at BYU the next day. He says, listen, I I, I'd like you to get your videography team to come and record my class for the semester.

In the past, she wouldn't have asked any questions. She wouldn't have paused. She'd have just been like, on it, I'm gonna [00:18:00] impress him. I'm gonna wow him. And, and she had visions already immediately of I'm going to have. We'll have multiple cameras in the room. We'll record it all, we'll edit it together.

We'll have music at the beginning and the end, and we'll have slides and we'll have graphics and it's gonna be great. A four month project. And then she remembers the coaching. But is there an effortless way to get what he really wants? Well, what does he really want? Oh, it turns out this is for one student who's gonna miss a few classes because of an athletic commitment.

And uh, and so she says, well, what if we just had somebody in the class record on, you know, the phone and just. Send it to that one student whenever he is gonna miss. Yeah. Rest is like, oh yeah, he was overcomplicating everything. Oh, he hadn't thought about it. He's like, oh yeah. That's great. That solves everything.

Mm-hmm. Perfect's not my play. I'll just say that to him. Done 10 minutes conversation based on this inverted question. Saves four months of work. For a whole team of people, and, and, and, and that's the idea, that's the power of [00:19:00] asking that question. Not once, not twice. You just keep asking it and asking it.

You'll be un just be amazed. At how often there are solutions, far simpler, far easier ways to achieve a noble end.

Monica Packer: So the first question is what is essential? And, and the second, I'm just making sure I got this clear. And the second question is, how can I make this effortless? Yeah. And so with the first one, can we go back to that a little bit? I know that you have a whole book on it. Let's just refer people to that, but Sure.

I, I wanna speak to one part of this that I see women really struggling with, and it's the acceptance of trade-offs as they're essentializing. Any advice on how to better handle. Just what comes up emotionally with, you know, choosing some trade-offs? [00:20:00] Yes. I mean, let, let's just, let's just define trade-offs, trade off.

Greg McKeown: Is that, that you, when you say yes to one thing, you're saying no to something else, right? Exactly. Yeah. And, and, and the idea really is to accept, it's, to be honest about it. We have been so sold the idea that there should be no trade-offs. You can divide demographically people over the last sort of, let's say 50 years and, and lots of groups have, have done much, much better, but generally speaking, and we don't have time to get into all the data of it, but women have, and working women have, have become less happy over that period and that bucks the trend.

Monica Packer: Hmm. And you know, one can, you know, only hypothesize as to why. But one reason I think is that is, is this idea you, you not only can have it all, which I think itself is not true, but, but that you should have it all and that the price for having it all is doing it all. Yeah. So all you have to do is do it all [00:21:00] and then you can have it all and you should.

Greg McKeown: And if you, if you aren't, don't have it all, it's because you aren't doing enough and, and because you aren't measuring up. I mean, that, that is such, that is such a recipe for unhappiness because let's, let's just look at the, I mean, it's, because it's based in lies, right? You cannot do at all. So like that premise is wrong and.

If you, and you can't have it all either, like nobody can what? What an even thing to say, and you certainly can't have it all at once, you know? All right. Now, so it's like you can have anything but not everything. So suddenly what, what comes outta this, that the idea of trade off is to embrace trade-offs, to celebrate it, to rejoice in it.

'cause what's really hidden inside of trade-offs is, is, is strategic advantage that you can say, I'm not trying to be this. I'm not interested in being like that person or what they've achieved. It's great for them. Go for it. You be that. You be you. That's, [00:22:00] you don't have to judge that. I'm not, I don't wanna do that.

I want to be this kind of person. I want have this kind of experience in life and, and so the tradeoffs are celebrating the yes and saying I want to make trade offs so that I can reinforce the strategy. I actually want to not just pursue a strategy by default. That has been laid out about, you know, and sold in, in, in, you know, in magazines and social media endlessly.

Monica Packer: Yes, endlessly is totally the right word for that.

Next up, Greg will share more practical tips on how to essentialize and ease our most important priorities. But first, a quick word from our sponsors.

You know, I was thinking as, uh, you were talking about how, what truly is essential for I think every human on earth. It comes down to [00:23:00] relationships. And yet that's the very thing that seems to be forfeited when we are trying to fulfill our responsibilities that are related to those relationships so often, especially for those who do a lot of care work at home.

Mm-hmm. And, and that's where both, you know, both of those questions you brought up earlier I think are so helpful, but also just, you know, what you're saying about trade-offs, like. That's effortless too. To make something effortless, you have to choose a different way. You have to choose the, you have to celebrate the yes you want as part of that.

So do you have any advice? There are some predictable things that, that, that women will, or people in generally, actually, but yes, we've been emphasizing, emphasizing women for this podcast and this conversation. But, but, we'll, we'll. Typically put down first. And my experience with this is the first thing that you will put down, the first essential thing you will, you will neglect is, is health.

Huh? Personal health. Yes. Uh, yeah. Sleep. Mm-hmm. Uh, eating. [00:24:00] Drinking water, exercise. Right. We know what they are, but those are the things that normally get put down first. And the second thing that gets put down is our closest, most important relationships as it happens. The, the, I'm working on a new book and the, the, the, the new book is, is, is centered in relationships and That's great.

Greg McKeown: So, and, and in communication and in understanding each other. And so, so I think one of the things I would just answer is that. I think it, the key to to being able to sort of apply essentialism to relationship and effortlessness to relationships is to, is to recognize, like I have got to invest in understanding the other person and understanding myself, like understanding and being understood.

This is, to me, a human's deepest need to be seen, to be heard. To, to, to feel like you [00:25:00] matter. Yeah. And, and we all want that, but because we go about it perhaps in the, in slightly the wrong way, like we want that, those needs to be met, we often miss what actually matters to each other. We don't understand precisely enough, so we can put enormous amounts of effort.

Into a relationship sometimes and, and be doing the wrong things, like who hasn't, who hasn't had the experience where you have received a gift and it's like you feel embarrassed. You maybe even feel some shame about it, but it's like, that's the wrong gift, man. Like I feel lonelier receiving it than even if I hadn't received it.

And of course it's then complex emotions. 'cause you feel like, I mean, how ungrateful is that and how why should Sure, why should feel so bad about that? I mean, of course they're just trying to do something nice and so on. So it's all this complex [00:26:00] inside, but what it really is, what that emotion is, and I think we are supposed to feel it is, I'm not known, I.

I don't feel known. And that is a need. It's not, it's not nice to have. We always say, oh, it's nice to eat. It's nice to drink. It is nice to be known. We need to be known. And really, like if we don't, if we don't understand that or admit that and don't find ways to have that need met, it will come out in uglier ways.

You can ignore it. It'll not ignore you. And so this is like the breakthrough when, when you, when you can break through and develop the mindset and the skills to be able to understand others precisely who they really are and what really matters to them and what doesn't. And, and you can also learn the skills to be able to communicate yourself, what really matters to you and what doesn't.

Your uniqueness, that's the breakthrough because then suddenly, relatively modest effort. [00:27:00] Can bring forward relatively amazing outcomes. You can make people glow if you, if you understand what matters. And who, who hasn't had the conversation? Oh my goodness. I'm trying, I'm doing so much. I'm doing all this, I'm doing all this for you and the other person.

Yeah. But I don't care about that stuff, you know? Mm-hmm. Oh, that's great. I mean, I'm, I'm doing this, I'm working all the time. I'm making all this, I'm doing all these things. I'm making all these sacrifices. It's like, yeah, but all I wanna do is spend time with you sitting down, listening, you know, there's drink tea together, and, and that's all I want to do.

It's like we don't get to those conversations. We don't understand how to say what we really want. And listen in a way that we can make it safe for other people to say what they really want. And we rubbish at figuring out what each other wants seriously. We don't wanna say it. It's vulnerable to say it because we can feel very rejected if we say what we want.

Uh, so this to me is what essentialism and effortless looks like in relationships. And I can see how clearly they work together, as well as knowing [00:28:00] yourself, which I could not separate from what you just shared. There is that is an essential need too, is knowing and seeing yourself and what you want and who you are and what you need and what matters to you.

We've been doing this, this fun. Well, I say it's fun exercise. You know, psychology is for nothing if it isn't to sort of, um, torture your own children. And so, and so, I, I have a norm when I'm reading and studying and researching is, is I, as soon as I've learned something, I wanna practice it instantly.

Immediately I'll mess it up and I don't care. I just want to try it because I'll learn more in the trying of it than just kind of, you know. And, and one of the things that we've been trying out as a family is whenever there's like a little conflict, uh, you know, contention with their children, they're all teenagers now.

And I'll say, I will say, okay, okay, pause. I say, what do you feel and what do you want? Hmm. And you know what happens every time is, is exactly the same every time is this [00:29:00] body language. And both people will do it. They just like, they literally, they put their head down, not in shame. Just like, it's like in thoughtfulness, like, huh.

Monica Packer: Hmm. So here they are having an argument. Here, there is some contention, and when I say, what do you feel and what do you want? They don't know. Isn't that strange? What an oddity, like what are they arguing about? So they'll pause and then, then literally the coaching is, I feel XI want Y and, and what it does.

Greg McKeown: Is that as then somebody says how they feel and what they want. First of all, the saying what you feel produces humanity, right? Like it draws forth the heart of the other. Hmm. You go, oh, I don't want you to feel that. Nothing in my intent is wanting that feeling in you. You know, the conflict is not, is not about trying to make you feel whatever this, you know, negative emotion is, and then when you say, this is what I want, [00:30:00] it's not what I wanted.

No one can do anything about that. I want this. It educates them. And I'm telling you that simple thing is like an instant change. And, and, and with some people you may have to practice that for a while. That's what I've found because they may, you know, people listening to this, chances are they are not good at saying what they feel and what they want and a little like a.

2 0 2, like guide on this is that most times when, when people say, I feel this, actually, they're not gonna say a feeling. I feel that you are being really irritating. It's not a feeling, you know? So people sometimes say, I feel that you should this. I feel that you are doing that. It's like, what do you actually feel?

I want you to name an emotion, so you have to go inside. How do I feel right now? I feel hurt, I feel mm-hmm. You [00:31:00] know, angry? Mm-hmm. I feel, what do you feel? You've gotta give an actual emotion and I want this so then somebody can do it. People don't know. People don't know what they want. How on earth are you supposed to know what you the other person wants?

If you do even that single change? It, it, it, I, I think that has the power to, to quite positively affect any relationship you're in.

Monica Packer: And it'll help answer those two big questions. You know, what is essential and how can this be effortless? It, it's, it's being able to get clear about, about that because you can't make something effortless if you don't know what from this actually matters to me. So then I can let go of what is overcomplicating it.

We, we do a lot of practical stuff, practical tips on the show, and we, we definitely go deep too, and this is kind of a trickier one to [00:32:00] get practical about, but I'm sure. In your years of research and writing and also implementing this, do you have any advice on how to make these, I guess, internalized expectations, these shoulds, how to weed through them in a way that it can be?

I don't know if easier is the right word, but maybe we can say easier since you're all about making things echo. Sure. How can, yeah. How can we make it easier for them to weed through the shoulds? Yeah. I'll give you a few practical things you can say. Okay. Every day, answer the question, what's the most important thing I need to do today?

Greg McKeown: Priority, like single. What's the most important thing? Hmm. There's nobody listening to this who only has one important thing to do. I understand that. But you say, okay, if there is only one, what is it? Hmm. And maybe you extend that out and you say, okay, if there were two or three really important things I could get done today, what would they be and why?

That's so powerful. And so immediately effective is it helps you orient the rest of your day. You will have distractions still, you will have unexpected things happen. All of that's true, but you'll have something to keep coming [00:33:00] back to through the day and it will help you orient all the other choices and decisions that you're facing.

And that's number one thing that people can do. Uh, and number two thing I would say related to that is to, is to then continue with that list until you have what I would call a done for the day list. So you say, okay. When these things are done today, I will be able to feel satisfied, like these were important, these were good, and I can be done.

And then after that, it's no sneaky work. That's what Anna and I call it with each other anyway. No sneaky work. When we, when we're done with those, we're done. Now, what do you do after you're done is number three, which is you have to make relaxing a responsibility. And it is because it's the slingshot.

For the next day. Mm-hmm. So we've gone through like literally two birthdays, a, a birthday right before Christmas, a week before Christmas. Christmas, a birthday after Christmas. And of course everybody knows right through the, you know, how much extra is going on through that season anyway, loads of other responsibilities and [00:34:00] ask, right?

So we've lived in that, but we also felt like we needed to move into, uh, into, into a house and basically move. And in the same period I. We felt very clearly we needed to do that. Now that's kind of a recipe for a disaster, right? And, and so and so, but this relaxing responsibility, my wife Anna, who will, will only semi joke that I wrote Essentialism for me and Effortless for her.

It's not, I don't know that I did either of those things intentionally, but I think she's probably right. Yeah. So we, we, you know, this idea of taking, relaxing as a responsibility. At first when she and I would talk about this, it was like, I. She would say, I, I don't even know how to relax. And myself too, just, just because you've been told that word, Hey, you should relax in life.

It's like, where's the competence for it? You gotta learn how to do it Seems strange, but that's just what I've found. And so I. She made this a priority that she would try to [00:35:00] find a way, like a routine, a ritual of relaxation through this whole move process. I mean, it's a very positive thing, but there's no question that that could be completely overwhelming.

And, and, and then if you get burned out through it, then that all adds to multiplicity of complications. And so her ritual includes like. It's all the familiar stuff. So it's not like brain science, but, but, but like actually having a bath every night, like I'm doing it. I've stopped no more sneaky work. I'm in there and I'm not, and I'm gonna read when I'm in there, I'm not on my laptop or on my phone or ordering something from Amazon.

Right. 'cause it's very tempting to do all of that. I'm actually reading. Right. And, and we have a, there's a whole series, I'm trying to remember the name of it. Uh, yeah. Georgette Higher. I probably shouldn't share that. Uh, maybe she was right, rather not. People know that the whole great series. No, no. There's nothing wrong with that series.

Sure. Other than it's like kind of, you know, British, you know, these, uh, these, these brilliant novels. That sounds exactly what I want. Yes. Well, actually they are quite entertaining and I mean, I like them too, but the, but, but, so [00:36:00] he's reading Georget Higher, she's reading a book like that and she's maybe even doing a little meditation there.

I'm telling you this is true. This is personal. This is for real. At the end of that, she's like a different person. Yeah, and I don't mean she's got into a bad state. I mean, she has removed a whole predictable exhaustion. Pattern from what would otherwise happen. I mean, of course it would happen. It's predictable.

Monica Packer: Hmm. So that decision, that choice, that trade off, I am going to make relaxing, irresponsibility, I'm gonna make it a ritual that is enjoyable, means that by the end of that she's relaxed. She gets to go, okay, I, I get to actually, you know, go pray, go sleep. And it, it really has made all the difference. I mean, it's a bit of a challenge, what we signed up for, but it's, it's taken off all those sharp edges.

Greg McKeown: That, that a big transition could have brought about. Now that's, so I don't know what number we're [00:37:00] on, but I think that's number three. You know, do you want more or should I, should I stay at three? What do you mean? Well, I mean, I could keep asking you to talk more and more, but what I almost feel like is we've gotten a great preview of your next book, which was accidental, but I will take it.

Monica Packer: I'm excited for that. You know, I, what I love so much about this whole conversation, Greg, is just how every, it turns everything on its head in ways that I think the whole world needs right now, and I appreciate that you're willing to really focus on. My audience of women, especially for this, for this chat, but this is not about superficial productivity.

This is not about putting work and responsibilities on pedestals that really are prisons. This is about relationships. And it's about rest in a, in a wonderful way that I don't see out there very much. So I, I wanna thank you for, for being so willing to have this conversation for all the work that you're doing, and if there's, if there's one very small way you think the listeners could, could start on our [00:38:00] whole conversation today, one small way they could start, what do you think that could be?

Greg McKeown: I would say, say no to one thing. And I've started doing something recently where I'll actually put my make, do my planning in a, in a digital document and I'll all the things that are done, I'll put in a done list. 'cause that's like satisfying to me to see the things that got done. Yes. But also a don't do list, but I said no to.

Hmm. And there's a few reasons to do that, but one is, it's so empowering to recognize you can choose not to do it. Good things, sometimes exciting things that you just go. I, I should want to do that, but I don't. Or other people would think that was good, but I just, it feels too much right now. And just put it on that list.

I don't, we're not doing it. Don't do list. And then over time, when you look at that list, you go, wow, I can do it. I actually have more say hmm, controlling my life [00:39:00] than is, than I, I feel that we often get so reactive. That is a sense of like, our life is running us rather than us, you know, designed fully, thoughtfully, deliberately, you know, living it.

And, and, and I, I think that's, I think that's a very simple way. You say, say no to something. Put it on a, put it on a. We're not doing it. List and just keep adding to it and, and, and see how that will reveal to you what you really prioritize and who you really are. And you, most of the items, not all, but most of the items on those lists you can see, you know, you could even go back to if you really wanted to, but it is a good, simple way to start.

Monica Packer: I love how intentional you even were about the advice. You know, I wish I could see you taking your time to really think that through. It means a lot to me that you would, Greg, this was amazing. I, I will make sure to link to your new book, effortless as well as Essentialism and your Instagram profile. Is there anywhere else you think people should go if they wanna I.

Delve more into your work, other resources [00:40:00] available to people for free. People can sign up for the one Minute Wednesday newsletter. It comes out every Wednesday. It's one minute to just kind of give you a very specific thing you can think about and then act upon immediately. They can sign up at gregmckeown.com and then of course, as a, as a the podcast as well, what's essential podcast.

Greg McKeown: And, and that comes out once a week as well to continue these conversations. Yes, and I've, I've really loved when your wife has been on the show too. It's, it's fun to hear her, her voice every now and then, but it, it's a great work that you're doing. What was that? By, by Popular Demand. It's now once a month that we're doing, and we're calling them the q and a episodes.

Monica Packer: I love that. Answering questions, but also my nickname was q. Growing up and when we first met and we first married and, and of course her name is Anna. So q and a. Oh, it's cute. Cute. It might be too cute. Get that, go with it. Go with it. You gotta go with it. We we're doing it anyway. Good. Good for you guys.

Well, thank you again. I appreciate your time. Thank you. Bye for now.[00:41:00]

I hope this episode gave you the hug and kick in the pants that you need to grow. I wanna do a special thank you to one of our progressors Rebecca, who made use of her connections and made this interview possible all out of the goodness of her own heart. So thank you, Rebecca, for helping us get Greg on the show.

Here are the progress pointers from this episode, and this is where I share some notes that you don't have to take, and those are my go-getter newsletter. Get this in a graphic form each week. Number one, we must learn to guide our lives with these two defining questions. What is essential? How can I make this effortless too easily?

Our priorities are drowned out by a hustle culture that leads to burnout. There's a better way to [00:42:00] prioritize that lies outside of all or nothing extremes. Two too often our responsibilities overwhelm our ability to show up to our most important relationships. We must get real about what we want and need as well as those that matter most to us too.

Number three, as part of essentializing and making things effortless, trade-offs are necessary. Learn to celebrate what you're saying no to so that you can say more important yeses. Consider making a no list. And number four, make rest an important priority in your life. No sneaky work. Make relaxation a ritual that happens often in your life.

Your do something challenge this week is to say no to something as Greg so kindly is pushing us to do. You can share about how that goes with me in a DM or an email, or you can just share about it openly on social media and tag me. Was this episode helpful for you? [00:43:00] Here are two quick and easy and free ways for you to, in turn support the, the podcast. Number one is to share about the podcast with your friends and family.

And number two, leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Just pick one of those. It doesn't have to be both, but my friends. I need you. This podcast cannot grow without you. Thank you so much for listening. Now go and do something with what you learned today.

Next, Greg will share more about how to essentialize and make the your blah, blah, blah.