How to Stop Overthinking and Start Making Confident Decisions || with Jessica Frew

In this episode, Jessica Frew and I dive deep into the topic of overthinking and decision-making, exploring how women, in particular, struggle with these issues. Jessica shared invaluable insights on how overthinking often manifests in our lives, from endless researching to self-judgment.

Jessica introduced practical steps to overcome overthinking and to make more confident decisions, emphasizing the importance of self-trust and letting go of societal "shoulds." From the concept of humble decision-making to actionable advice on taking small steps towards our desires, this conversation is packed with wisdom that many women will find relatable and empowering. Jessica’s insights offer a roadmap to reclaiming our inner decision-maker and living a life in alignment with who we truly are.

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TRANSCRIPT 

Monica Packer: [00:00:00] Jessica Frew welcome to About Progress.

Jessica Frew: Thank you so much for having me back, Monica.

Monica Packer: It's so good to have you back. Today we're gonna be talking about overthinking and how easily we can do that, especially when we have a decision that we are trying to make. And I have to tell you, decision making is one of those surprising things to me that women struggle with.

Like, I didn't know what a big thing that was until I started to work with clients or talk to my audience, say, what do you struggle with the most? And decision making came up. Over and over again. So we're going to really hit that hard. But I wanted to begin with the overthinking issue because that may not look like people think.

It looks like when we think of overthinking, we think of thinking.

Jessica Frew: Yeah.

Monica Packer: So what

Jessica Frew: Yes.

Monica Packer: I mean, it can, I mean, so feel free to say that too, but what does overthinking actually look like?

Jessica Frew: Overthinking comes in many different forms. It is just thinking sometimes, but it's over researching, like going down a spiral of, you know, googling [00:01:00] everything and listening to all the podcasts and all of the things to try and gather all of the information, which is really just a form of keeping us safe from having to make a decision.

Um, there's also the idea that. You know, we, we sit in bed and we overthink and we ruminate as we're trying to fall asleep. It can be asking for other people's opinions and constantly leaning into those. It also shows up as judgment of ourselves and creating a story of what it means if we choose something that feels right for us.

So we create this story about what it means. If we do this thing and we ruminate on it, we think about it all the time, or like pops into our head every time we want to make. The decision we want to make. And the thing is, we are making decisions constantly. It is something we are doing constantly in our lives and so many decisions on our are on autopilot, which is important.

We need decisions to be some of them to be on autopilot. But there are things that we have put on autopilot that also we need [00:02:00] to be considering and being intentional about. So I think often we overthink things, you know, that seem like a big deal or seem like they're going to be life changing and we aren't thinking about things we do every day that maybe are contributing to our happiness or are joy or our peace or any of those things.

Then maybe we need to start considering more of.

Monica Packer: Hmm. Yeah, I didn't even think about that, honestly. Okay. That's giving me some things to chew on. I'm sure. I'm gonna come back to that. I want to of cue in though to what you were just saying about how. I wanna build out what women should look for, right? So if

Jessica Frew: Yes.

Monica Packer: you are ruminating, like if you

Jessica Frew: Mm-hmm.

Monica Packer: going over the story in your head about how one story would play out, if you can't stop researching or opinion finding, I know we do that a lot.

Like ask all the friends, all the

Jessica Frew: Yes.

Monica Packer: all their dogs, like what should I do? But the judgment of self piece,

Jessica Frew: Mm.

Monica Packer: that kind of perked me up a little bit. expand on that a little more? Yes.

Jessica Frew: [00:03:00] Yes. , The judgment of self keeps us in a place of inaction, and we do it constantly. I always, well, this is the first step, like in my actual decision making process that I work with people through, is that we get stuck in this idea that, and going back to like your whole thing of perfectionism, we get stuck in, well, I have to do it this one way.

Or it's, it means this about me or somebody is going to think this about me or whatever. And it keeps us from taking aligned action that benefits us in the long run. It keeps us in relationships that aren't healthy. It keeps us in friendships. It keeps us in a work situation that maybe isn't alignment.

It keeps us doing things as parents that maybe. Aren't actually great for us or for our children, but we think that's how it should be done. We think that's how it needs to be done. And I always say like the judgment piece when we think about it

Monica Packer: It's

Jessica Frew: a lot of shoulding on ourselves. So we, we can hear it, identify it in [00:04:00] the word should.

Well, I should do it this way. It should be done. It should look this way. It should be X, Y, and Z. And this, I mean like I think of everything. If we are trying to take care of our bodies and take care of our health, we should all over ourselves. And it keeps us from actually taking action towards what would feel good and alignment for us.

Monica Packer: so it sounds like. In the process of self-judgment, you are removing the right to your own wants and desires. Like you're

Jessica Frew: A hundred percent.

Monica Packer: you actually want. You're like, Nope, can't want that. That's

Jessica Frew: Yep.

Monica Packer: That's wrong. Good moms don't do that.

Jessica Frew: Mm-hmm.

Monica Packer: it is, you

Jessica Frew: Yeah.

Monica Packer: we, so that's what you mean by the judgment piece.

Jessica Frew: A hundred percent. Yeah. It will keep us stuck. I mean, I work with women often who are navigating, do I wanna stay in my relationship, do I wanna leave? And I have women who have stayed in relationships for 44 plus years. I have one woman right now that I'm specifically working with, and she's known for

44 years, she has wanted to leave her [00:05:00] relationship, but because of what it means about her or what other people will think, or the timing isn't right or any of these things, she has stayed. And that's fine. Like

Monica Packer: we

Jessica Frew: aren't gonna beat ourselves up for staying. We aren't gonna judge our own timelines or other people's timelines.

And also when we release this judgment piece of what it means about us, if we do X, Y, and Z. We get more of our life back. We get to be in alignment with who we are. We get to have meaningful relationships instead of sitting in something that doesn't feel good.

Monica Packer: Okay. W do, do you think this is a women problem more so than men? I mean, I don't want to necessarily stereotype, but everything you just painted was about. The stereotypes we take on as women, the roles that

Jessica Frew: Yeah.

Monica Packer: on, and with that, all the prescriptions that are attached to them, which are very service bound and selfless driven, which of course we don't wanna totally throw the baby out with a bath water kind

Jessica Frew: Yeah.[00:06:00] 

Monica Packer: I, you know, let's, let's talk about that. That may be a little bit

Jessica Frew: Mm-hmm.

Monica Packer: thing to ask, but I think we gotta go there.

Jessica Frew: I think a hundred percent it is. I think women struggle with this on a very deep level because of the conditioning of growing up in a patriarchal society and things that are put on us in that sense of this is women's roles, this is what we do. And some of that is external, some of that is internal. Um, some of that comes from your family life.

It comes from religions that you were raised in. It comes from. So much conditioning that is individual to women. Like to each of us individually. But yes, I think very much women struggle with this more often than men. Um, it's put on us that we are responsible for other people's thoughts, feelings, and emotions.

We are responsible for our kids and how they turn out. We are responsible for their actions.

Monica Packer: We're

Jessica Frew: responsible for taking care of our partners and making sure they are successful, like doing the things at home we support them in their [00:07:00] dreams, but we need to suppress our own.

Like there is so much that goes into that for sure of understanding how we release these internal dialogues that we have been fed since we were tiny little girls.

Monica Packer: And that goes back to what you were saying earlier about the shoulds.

Jessica Frew: Yeah.

Monica Packer: what leads us to overthink. So it's like

Jessica Frew: Mm-hmm.

Monica Packer: that we

Jessica Frew: Yeah.

Monica Packer: everything you just described as a should. Well, let's get to some, you know, now that they've maybe recognized more of,

Jessica Frew: Mm-hmm.

Monica Packer: see now that when I think I'm being like dutiful and researching a decision,

Jessica Frew: Yeah.

Monica Packer: it for years. Or if I'm asking everybody or if I'm just sitting in those stories that I'm worried about, I. Self-fulfilling prophecies. I guess I must be overthinking and I wanna make more confident decisions. I wanna overthink less. What are some things they can do to do that? To overthink less, to make, to make decisions.

More

Jessica Frew: One of the things I really encourage women to do is, first of all, we have to regain trust [00:08:00] in ourselves, and I'll go into that in a little bit. But the thing that actually works is making small decisions that are in alignment for who we are. So hearing our voice on a daily basis saying, Hey, this is how I want to do my hair.

These are the clothes I want to wear. This is the workout. I want to do, these are the foods that sound good to me because of my values and what I want right now in my life. And not only just hearing those things, but taking action on them. When we do that, we start coming back to ourselves.

We start hearing how much judgment we have on ourselves, and it allows us to build confidence that it is okay to trust ourselves. And to trust that inner knowing. And I think it is such a small thing and it makes a huge difference. And I always tell women like, I'm not telling you to go out and look like me.

I'm not telling you to go do what I do. I am a very bright. Semi loud person, people would say, my I, my [00:09:00] appearance is loud, and I don't want that for you. I want you to understand what it is you want, what it is you want to wear, what it is you wanna put in your body. Like these little things that we overthink every day because we have so many voices in our head.

Telling us that they're not right or that it's not what we should do. We need to do this. And I think about, like

Monica Packer: we're

Jessica Frew: about how we're, you know, getting into forties, 40 plus, whatever,

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Jessica Frew: and how that voice is like, I think about, oh, you have to be working out. You need to do this, you need to do that because our bodies are shifting and all of those things.

And while those things are important, we want to do them in a way that is in alignment for us and that is in alignment with our values and goals and intentions for life.

Monica Packer: I think when women hear that they're gonna easily push this aside

Jessica Frew: Yep.

Monica Packer: it just seems like, well, why does it matter that I honor what I want for breakfast? But

Jessica Frew: Yeah.

Monica Packer: the shoulds are so sneaky again. I mean,

Jessica Frew: Yep.

Monica Packer: just this morning while I was feeding my kids their breakfast, I was [00:10:00] thinking, I, I need to eat breakfast too, but I shouldn't eat what I made for them.

I should eat this. I need, it was more of like the whole protein thing. I'm like, you need

Jessica Frew: Yes. We need protein. All the protein.

Monica Packer: all the protein. anyway, I you'll be proud. 'cause I just went and, you know, I was like, well, I, I, I don't have time right now, but when we go take my daughter, I'm gonna go get a vegetable pastry, zero grams of protein.

I'm

Jessica Frew: it.

Monica Packer: But it's okay because in these small things, that's how we do the bigger things I'm, I'm imagining,

Jessica Frew: Yes. Yes. We have been told from a very young age, I always say we were the first person, we were taught not to trust. We were taught that we can't trust our innate decider. We were told we shouldn't want that. It doesn't hurt that bad. It's not that big of a deal. Um, you shouldn't dress that way. You should do this.

You should want this. Don't be scared, don't like all of these things that we are told, and it disconnected us from our inner knowing and from our inner [00:11:00] decision making power. It tell us, and this was done by well-meaning adults. I mean, I've said things like this to my own kids and then been like, okay, wait.

I don't want them to not trust themselves. I want them to know that what they feel is real and the things they want are good and all of that. But it's just in us because we think we are protecting people. And that's ultimately what our brain is doing, is it is trying to protect us. And we've trained it to trust the external forces more than we trust our internal knowing.

And so as we do these little things, we start creating that trust back into ourselves. It takes doing the little things daily to create that trust and confidence and. To let our nervous system and our brain know we are safe to do that because so much we talk about nervous system all the time, and I truly believe that it comes down to a lot of just these basic small things of letting ourselves know we are safe to trust ourselves and act on the things that we want and need.[00:12:00]

Monica Packer: Yeah. It goes back to that relationship piece. This is how

Jessica Frew: Yeah.

Monica Packer: you can build it back up. Alright. What's another tip you have for them?

Jessica Frew: Yeah. I always encourage women to do a should challenge. So in my first step of the decision making process, which is called be gentle, we are learning how to be gentle with ourselves. We are learning how to release judgment, and in that, I, I don't actually want you to do anything with the judgment you're putting on yourself.

We're just identifying it. And so in the should challenge, it kind of goes back to what you were saying, like these little moments of judgment that we start catching. When we are trying to be intentional with our decision making, so I should wear this, I should eat that. Like going back to those little basic things, we start hearing like, oh my gosh, when we are, when we say that should, it is actually judgment of ourselves.

And it's such an easy way to catch that judgment right away and to be like, whoa. There is judgment here, and then if we can take that and kind of just let it sit, or if you want to do [00:13:00] something with it, you can change it to a could. Like, oh, I could do that, because it's giving you an option without judgment.

It's a simple change, but it gives you that option of like, oh, I could do this thing. Do I really want to, is this actually in alignment with who I am? Does this feel good? Am I doing it for other people, like, because I'm afraid of what they're gonna think or what they're gonna say, or what they think it means If I don't do this thing, or am I doing it because I am showing love for myself and choosing something that's in alignment for me?

So I, I love going to a should challenge and starting there, I always tell 'em, do it for a week. Identify one should a day. If you do it for longer, like two, three weeks, you're never gonna let it go. Like you are going to remember those. You're going to think, oh, I just shut it on myself. Like, oh, I hear the should.

I hear the judgment. And it's really key that we release that judgment. I always say that 60% of the decision making process. Is releasing judgment of ourselves, and it's because it's so [00:14:00] ingrained in us to not trust ourselves, to beat ourselves up, to think that that is the best way to get movement forward, when really if we show up with love and what is in alignment for us, it creates excitement and joy and safety to be able to act.

Monica Packer: Got it. And it's interesting in doing the should challenge, it's also another. of learning how to make choices.

Jessica Frew: Yeah.

Monica Packer: that, you know, I, in teaching habit formation a lot for that we come across as shoulds too. And one thing

Jessica Frew: Yeah.

Monica Packer: teach the women is, um, that I teach is that shoulds can be chosen and when you switch from should to could, you're learning how to do that.

Jessica Frew: Yes.

Monica Packer: a choice, even if it's, you'd end up choosing the should or the way you're

Jessica Frew: Yeah.

Monica Packer: So like that's another whole other way to sneakily practice it too.

Jessica Frew: Yeah.

Monica Packer: What's another way they can improve their overthinking?

Jessica Frew: So the next step of the decision making process is being humble. And when we hear the word humble, often as women, we think, oh, I need to be a doormat. I need [00:15:00] to just give myself away. We need to lean more into the shoulds of doing what everybody else expects. I want to change the thinking around this word, humble.

It means. We are going to release our ego so that when we have this decision to make, we aren't concerned about what other people are going to think or we don't feel like we have to do it right or a specific way, or that it means something bad about us, but instead it means we are releasing that ego so that we can do what is in alignment with who we are.

It allows us the humility to say, I don't have to be right. I don't care what anybody else. Things. I don't need to worry about their judgment or justify my actions. Instead, I get to know myself so deeply that I know what is right for me. So being humble is a process of getting to know and understand ourselves on a deep level so that when those shoulds creep up, when that judgment comes, we know, okay,

[00:16:00] this is in alignment with who I am. This is what I value because X, Y, and ZI know this about myself, so that we don't get stuck in the spiral of thinking that keeps us from taking action.

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm. Well, so earlier on you talked about how overthinking is a lot of us ruminating on the stories we are telling ourselves

Jessica Frew: Yes.

Monica Packer: the decisions we could potentially make, but how those stories are often advanced judgment of what other people are going to say

Jessica Frew: Mm-hmm.

Monica Packer: So what I, what I'm hearing when you say this is it's less bike, don't care about. Your choices, how they'll impact other people. It's more if you were to remove people's judgment

Jessica Frew: Yes.

Monica Packer: what would you choose?

Jessica Frew: A hundred percent. And I think we get those two things confused all the time as women.

Monica Packer: too. It's confusing

Jessica Frew: Yes.

Monica Packer: when you're like, wait, how do I do that?

Jessica Frew: Yeah. We are releasing, we aren't like negating our impact on the world or what could be a negative impact on [00:17:00] somebody else, but we are understanding that.

Monica Packer: If

Jessica Frew: If they think something negative about it that doesn't reflect poorly on us, that doesn't devalue our worth, that doesn't mean we made the wrong decision.

That doesn't mean anything. It just means that they have their own thoughts, feelings, and opinions about our actions. And so we get to understand that as we do what is best for us, we are actually impacting the world in the most powerful way that we can because we are creating safety for ourselves, and we are creating safety for other people to take action as well.

Now, when it comes down to it, if we are living into our values, I have, I've never met a woman. Who doesn't have values that include love and support and genuine concern for the people around her. So it's not that we are just like, Hey, I am choosing this thing and I don't care if it blows up everybody else's lives.

It is that [00:18:00] we are saying, Hey, I am choosing this thing because I know it is what's best for me. And if it's what's best for me, ideally because I'm living into my values, it's also what's best for my family and for my kids and for my partners. Um, and those things. And it, and it really does shift things.

And I have like an example I can go into to make this make a little bit more sense. Um.

Monica Packer: scariest one, I think

Jessica Frew: It is scary, and that's why I always say like this first, these first two steps in decision making are the biggest part because they feel scary. And what's scary about them before I go into this example is that we don't know the unknown.

On the other side, we think, well, what we're ruminating on is. Our known idea of what could happen. We are ruminating on, oh, you know, if I get divorced then my kids X, Y, and Z is going to happen to my kids. If I get divorced, then I have no money, I have no whatever. Like these are things that we. Think we know could [00:19:00] happen, but what we aren't giving space to is the unknown of what could happen, the possibilities of what doors could open if we make this decision that is best for us.

Divorce is just the first one that always comes to mind because I work with a lot of women who are unhappy in their marriage and are navigating that decision. Do I say, do I go? Um, it's a big one for so many of us. And it was a big one for me. Like I, I was married once. I was married to my ex-husband for seven years.

I went into my second marriage feeling like I am going to take this on. I am going to crush this. I have all of this knowledge from my first marriage. My first husband was gay. My second husband is not like, this is going to be amazing. Like all of the great things, I don't have to worry about anything.

And we were really. Good for each other. So I start this marriage and I realize immediate well. About six, seven months in, I am shing all over myself. I am [00:20:00] angry. I am bitter. I am resentful because I am showing up for everybody else because I was trying to prove my worth. I didn't want anybody to think anything negative about me.

I didn't want my husband's ex-wife to like think X, Y, and z. I wanted her kids to think whatever about me. I wanted, um, my husband to know that I was. Going to show up for him. And I is constantly living into these shoulds of what I thought I should do to prove my worth to all of these people, which was internally signaling to me that I was not of worth.

And it was damaging our relationships because when we live into other people's shoulds. It gathers those things, like I was saying, the resentment, the bitterness, the anger, and so it actually isn't helping our relationships. Me trying to make it easier for Matt and his ex-wife to communicate to like do all the things was actually damaging all of our relationships and about a year into our marriage, I was like, you know what?

I can't do this anymore. I was tired, I was exhausted. I [00:21:00] like all of the things that happen when we're living into what everybody else wants us to do instead of what we need to do. And I created all these stories about how horrible I was and that I wasn't good enough, and creating proof over and over again in my head that it was true.

And so I left. I was like, I am done. I can't do this. I had reached the point where I realized I was more afraid of losing myself than losing my husband. And what that meant to me was scarier than losing him. And I left, and within the weekend I had. A full-time job. I had a place for my daughter and I to live.

I had everything set up for life outside of this marriage and was ready to go. And I was sitting there and I was like, I can't do this. Because first and foremost I knew my husband and I were really good together. If we could figure all of this out and second. I knew that I [00:22:00] hadn't gone into this marriage doing the core thing I needed to do, and that was be true to me.

And so I went back. I remember walking into our house and my husband, like I knew he did not want me there. I knew like I can see his face. He was not happy. I was back. And I just like, oh my gosh, okay, I can, I can do this because I know this is deep down what I want, but I have to approach this differently.

And I came back and basically started setting boundaries. They didn't have to be spoken. They didn't have to be like, I didn't need anybody else to change. I came back knowing. I needed to focus on me and I started implementing these things. I started releasing the shoulds one at a time. I was no longer going to be the go-between between him and his ex-wife.

He had to communicate directly to her. I was no longer doing pickup and drop-offs with his kids. I. They sound like mean things. They sound like I was being a jerk. Like I, you know, like I didn't wanna be involved in the family, but it was [00:23:00] creating conflict within our family, within our marriage, within all of the things that didn't need to be there.

And at first, Matt was like.

Monica Packer: like,

Jessica Frew: I don't know about this, but he was like, okay, let's, let's try it. Like this is what you feel you need. I am, I'm gonna lean into it. And slowly it started healing our relationships and it started healing my sense of worth. I. My confidence and safety for me within this relationship.

And therefore, Matt started feeling safe within our relationship. And so he was able to express the things he needed, and we were able to start feeling this connection to each other because we were connected to ourselves. And this is the beauty that happens. When we start releasing these shoulds and when we start understanding what it is we value, what it is we need and silencing the noise that we hear from other people, um, and we are coming up on 12 years of marriage now and are really so happy [00:24:00] and it, it works.

It doesn't mean it's gonna save every marriage, but it, it does mean that it is going to help you find the joy, fulfillment, peace, clarity, safety in your life that you are looking for, that you are craving deep down.

Monica Packer: mm-hmm. Those all sound like things we want more of.

Jessica Frew: Yes.

Monica Packer: how even in, you know, a good relationship.

Jessica Frew: Mm-hmm.

Monica Packer: those are things we gotta be aware of and tweaking and you know, noticing when they're, they're creeping back in and how it creates the ability for everyone to do that. That's what

Jessica Frew: Yes.

Monica Packer: love the most. Again, it goes back to that fear we were talking about. I think a lot of people think if I am humble, if I release worrying about what people think about me, then I'm just only gonna think of myself.

Jessica Frew: Yeah.

Monica Packer: really is, it makes more space for everyone. It

Jessica Frew: Yeah.

Monica Packer: does. That's

Jessica Frew: Yeah,

Monica Packer: the

Jessica Frew: and the crazy thing that happens when we start paying attention to what it is we want and need, like in these little everyday decisions, me [00:25:00] showing up as myself, me dressing in a way that I feel good. Then I go into whatever situation I'm in, and I am not think thinking about myself. I am not thinking about like, oh, is this like fitting right?

Is this whatever? Instead, I get to think about the people I am in community with. It creates this weird thing that has been totally flipped in our brains for some reason. If I think about myself and take care of myself first, then I'm not gonna be thinking about anybody else. When in reality, when we take care of ourselves first, when we make decisions that are alignment for us.

We get to show up more powerfully for the other people in our lives, and it creates this space to be able to do that where we aren't constantly thinking about, is my hair okay? Do I look all right? Because we've done what feels good for us and therefore we don't have to think about it.

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm. what a release.

Jessica Frew: Yes.

Monica Packer: I think you have one more for us. So what, what else

Jessica Frew: Yes. So the last part of the decision making [00:26:00] process, I always say this is 10% of the process is actually taking action on the decision.

Monica Packer: hmm.

Jessica Frew: And this is why, you know, we ruminate, we get stuck in all of these things, and we waste a lot of our time and energy on that.

Monica Packer: that

Jessica Frew: When really we could just take action.

This is be bold. This is the be bold step. I always called it like a leap of faith, and I'm like, no. It's just acting on the decision that we are going to make. Trusting that innate knowing, trusting that we are going to make the best decision for us, and even if it doesn't go as planned. It was still our next best decision.

I don't say right or wrong decision. I don't say any of that. I say our best decision because when we are acting in alignment with who we are, when we are trusting what is coming up for us, it doesn't mean life is going to go exactly as we had planned. It means that life is going to give us the clarity and the confidence to get us to where we need to go.

So often, like I mean, my life as an example. [00:27:00] Definitely has not gone as planned, but I always say like I do not consider marrying my ex-husband to have been a mistake. Like there is so much I've learned about myself. It has brought me to this place of where I am helping other women and where I have this story to share that helps people feel connected and understood when life doesn't go as planned.

Monica Packer: And

Jessica Frew: wouldn't trade that for the world. And it's also taught me so much about love for myself and for other people in ways I never, I. It never could have happened any other way, and I'm so grateful for that. Now, was it hard? Yes. Was it not what I expected? A hundred percent. But it has given me confidence. It has created safety in my life.

It has given me clarity around those things that I need, and that is the power of making aligned decisions. It's not going to go how we planned, but when we take action, we gather information. And we gather confidence, and those are the two things we are [00:28:00] looking for. When we are in that ruminating cycle that we aren't getting, we aren't getting that clarity, we aren't getting that confidence because we aren't doing the thing that actually gives us that clarity and confidence, which is making the decision and acting on it.

Monica Packer: Yeah, moving forward, I, you know, when you think back at that starting line too, the rumination piece I think is because people want certainty before they make the decision. And as you just explained, I mean, so often that certainty comes in. Moving forward with a decision in

Jessica Frew: Yeah,

Monica Packer: and there are very few choices that are irreversible or

Jessica Frew: hundred percent.

Monica Packer: or ways that you can tweak or pivot. That really is what decision making is. It's like a series of decisions, not just one and done

Jessica Frew: A hundred percent. I always think that one of the only permanent decisions in his life is children. Like that's a pretty permanent thing that comes into your life, and I know that ebbs and flows and it looks different for everybody.

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

Jessica Frew: But outside of that, there is not a whole lot that is a permanent decision in our [00:29:00] lives.

There's not a whole lot that can't be shifted or changed. When you move forward, when you take the action, you are going to get information. I work with a lot of women too, who are like shifting jobs or careers or making decisions in those careers. I'm like, if you make a small decision and start acting, then you're going to know like, oh no, this doesn't feel right.

I definitely need to go this other way. And you can go that direction with confidence instead of sitting there and overthinking it and wanting the perfect answer every time.

Monica Packer: and that's what you did with, with your second marriage and, and that,

Jessica Frew: Yeah.

Monica Packer: of being like, I'm gone and then making decisions and moving forward with it and then realizing. I, I, I, this is the decision I do

Jessica Frew: Yep. Yep,

Monica Packer: Is there another example? You just walked us through that decision making process. Maybe one of your clients or people who've worked with you of, of a decision that they make and how they use any one of these concepts to help them get the clarity they needed and encourage really to move forward.

For sure.

Jessica Frew: for sure. Um, I, I do a lot of [00:30:00] decision days with women now where we sit down for like. A full day and go through all the things. I help them get clear on the things that are just ruminating in their heads. The stories I'm tell they're telling theirselves so that they can hear what it is they actually want.

I'm really good at pulling that out of people and, um, I think of one of my clients, I. I, I mentioned her earlier, who's been sitting on this marriage for so long and trying to decide what to do. And we went through this whole process in one of these decision days of working through this. Like, what is it you want?

What is keeping you in this marriage? Do you wanna stay in the marriage? Um, we're not doing a pros and cons list here, but it is like getting into those things of like. Where is it that you wanna go? And after we went through this, she left with this list of things that I gave her. I'm like, here are the next action steps.

And some of them looked like going to find out, like going to talk to a car dealer about the car you want. Because she had this vision of she wanted a truck so that she could go, you know, travel and [00:31:00] do these things that maybe her husband isn't capable of doing. And she messaged me that day, like within an hour.

She's like, I went and talked to this car dealership and I now know. The price of the truck, like I know which truck I want and I have information about the price of it, and now I can go find information. I'm gonna go look at information about getting a trailer to, to be hauled behind and like all of these little things that it's information and they were small things that don't seem to do with, like, they're not directly connected to her getting a divorce or staying in the marriage or not, but it gives her information.

Monica Packer: if

Jessica Frew: Of if I make this decision and chase this life that I want, that has been on my heart for so long, I know what I need to do to do it. I know how much money I want. I know what things I need to have in place. And it sounds like such simple, small things, but it has led her further and further down this path of being able to be clear with herself about what it is she wants and being clear with her partner who, if she stays.

And [00:32:00] continues in this cycle of bitterness, anger, and resentment. Their relationship is going to be completely damaged instead of leaving at a time that is actually empowering, where they can do it with love and clarity to be able to leave and be able to co-parent together. Still, I. Their kids are obviously grown and whatever, but there's still an aspect of co-parenting that comes in at any age, and so it's understanding like, no, this is what I want.

I can do this. I can have this life I want in these seemingly small decisions and information I'm gathered by taking action doesn't mean she's gonna go file for divorce. As soon as we're done talking, it means she's gathering. And I don't wanna say like, this isn't ruminating gathering, this is actual decision making so that you have clarity.

This is scheduling an appointment with somebody to, talk about what your finances need to look like if you're getting divorced. I had one lady and she's post-divorce and she's wanting to find herself again. She left and one of her actions was to go [00:33:00] buy earrings that she loved.

She was like, I always want fun earrings. And I'm like. You need to leave here and go buy 'em, and she did it. She's like, I'm so excited. It was like such a small thing that then starts rewiring our brain to know we are safe to go make decisions and to go act on these things that feel right for us and stop creating some story that's keeping us from that action.

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm. So much of this is. Edifying. I think of what we have learned over the years, I think is being part of being an adult woman is, is coming back to who you are. Right?

Jessica Frew: Yes.

Monica Packer: about this for many years on the podcast, just the importance of that sense of self. But in the process of talking about how to make better decisions, it just keeps coming back to that too.

How that's the biggest core to it all. It's the biggest way to move through the decisions. It's also the biggest reason to get better at making decisions.

Jessica Frew: Yeah.

Monica Packer: the word align. Quite a few times

Jessica Frew: [00:34:00] Yes.

Monica Packer: just wanted to end with, can you paint the picture for what it feels like to be aligned? Because that's something I think can be pretty nebulous for people.

They're like, make decisions that feel aligned, but how do I know that?

Jessica Frew: Yeah,

Monica Packer: does that feel like?

Jessica Frew: it feels like safety and I think. We think we're chasing joy, we're chasing happiness, we're chasing whatever. And I truly believe, especially as women, we are chasing safety. We want to feel safe in being seen as who we are. We want to feel safe in making those decisions that are right for us. And so choosing into what feels safe.

In the beginning feels scary and it doesn't feel safe. The more we do it, the more we create those feelings of safety within ourselves. That's how we know we are in alignment. If we feel safe to be seen, to say how we're feeling, to acknowledge what we want for dinner, to like say these things, [00:35:00] that is what alignment feels like.

It feels like safety, and some of us have never felt safe in our lives, and so we have to. Rewire our nervous system, create that safety within ourselves to understand that I am safe to make these decisions. I am safe to speak up and express how I feel to express what I want. Um, but that's really when somebody is in alignment, that's what they feel is safe.

Monica Packer: Hmm. That sums up also why we're here, right?

Jessica Frew: Mm-hmm.

Monica Packer: is why this matters. And I, and just imagining women feeling safe. And what that can bring to the world and what it can do to heal relationships and what it can do to heal women and expand our possibilities and help us lean into new things. It's gonna change a lot of things for a lot of people. know you were writing a book on this very topic, so tell us a little bit about it and when they should expect it to be released, because we're not quite to that point. It's coming out this fall, so I'm sure they're gonna be anxious [00:36:00] to hear more.

Yeah.

Jessica Frew: Yeah, the book is called Shove Your Shoulds, and it goes more in depth into this decision making process so that you can take these and really get those actionable tools. We talked about a few of them here, things to do. This isn't just like saying, oh, I'm gonna be nice to myself. I'm gonna say some affirmations.

Those all have their place. They're important tools and also I think there is more to this than we've ever dove into, into this decision making process. So it gives you those actionable tools. It also goes into three of the main things I think, really keep women from making aligned decisions. The decisions where they feel that safety,

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

Jessica Frew: to give you that clarity and confidence to move forward.

And it is dropping in September, but you can go now to shove your shoulds.com and get on the wait list so that you'll be the first to know when it comes out, um, and be able to pick up your copy.

Monica Packer: Fantastic. Well, I'm so excited for you.

Jessica Frew: Thank

Monica Packer: be

Jessica Frew: [00:37:00] you.

Monica Packer: thing to finally release into the world. I know this has been the work you've done for so many years

Jessica Frew: Yes.

Monica Packer: but also professionally with so many women. Before we ask our final question, where should they go if in the meantime, beyond the wait list, they want to learn more from you and to connect with you?

Jessica Frew: Yeah, the best place to connect with me is Instagram at Hey, Jessica Fru. Um, yeah, get on the wait list. Go to Hey, Jessica Fru and find me there. That's where I mostly hang out in the social media world.

Monica Packer: fantastic. All right, Jess, we always end with this final question and it's just a way to distill all that we've learned. What is one small way listeners can take action on what they learned today?

Jessica Frew: Go do one thing that is calling to you today. Go take action on that little thing that you are hearing in your voice. It like in your soul, it's like, oh man, I really wanna do this. That could be taking a nap, that could be doing, going for a run. That could be anything you want it to be. Take action on it.

And if you can't take action today. Plan [00:38:00] it. Put it on the calendar. Make it happen.

Monica Packer: Fantastic. Yeah, I'm thinking through that already for myself, and I already have a couple ideas, so I'll have

Jessica Frew: Love it. Go eat that.

Monica Packer: end up doing. Yeah,

Jessica Frew: Yeah. Eat the vegetable pastry. That could be it.

Monica Packer: that could be it today.

Jessica Frew: Yes.

Monica Packer: Well, Jessica, I'm so proud of you. Can't wait for this book to fully come out into the world.

And, uh, thank you. Thank you for being here and sharing all of your amazing knowledge with us in our community.

Jessica Frew: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me and for the work you do.

Monica Packer: Oh, so good Jess. So tell me, um, what's coming up that you're really excited?

It's so good to have you back. You're just one of my favorite people in real life and on in the professional interwebs. Wait, we've never even met in real life, have we? What is, what

Jessica Frew: Isn't that, isn't that funny? Like I always think about this. I feel like we have, I feel like we have.

Monica Packer: as I was saying, I was like, no, what?

We haven't, okay, well

Jessica Frew: We're gonna make this happen. We're gonna make it happen soon.

Monica Packer: Sooner rather than later, for sure.

​[00:39:00]