The Relationship Cycle That Keeps Couples Stuck (and How to Break It) || with KC Davis

Ever find yourself stuck in the same argument over and over? Therapist KC Davis sheds light on how hidden defense mechanisms and vulnerabilities fuel these cycles. Her insights reveal that the stories we tell ourselves about our partners can turn simple pain into full-blown panic. By recognizing these patterns, we can transform conflicts into opportunities for growth and connection.

In her book, "Who Deserves Your Love," KC shares practical advice for embracing a collaborative approach to relationships. Her focus on self-awareness helps us slow down the vulnerability cycle, fostering more meaningful interactions. If you're caught in repetitive disputes, KC's strategies might be the key to understanding and improving your valuable connections.

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TRANSCRIPT

KC Davis: the key is not to never have vulnerabilities. It's not to never have defense mechanisms. . But the real first step and the real key is challenging the stories that we tell ourselves

Monica Packer: Okay.

KC Davis: the other person.

​

 

Hi, this is Monica Packer and you're listening to about progress where we are about progress made practical. Do you tend to have the same argument with your partner? You know about the dishwasher never getting unloaded, or the tone of voice that they use, or maybe how they never look at you while you're talking.

What if the biggest problem in your relationship isn't communication, but a cycle you both keep getting pulled into without realizing it, one, where each person's vulnerabilities are triggering the others, and both sides are resorting to defense mechanisms that hurt more than they help.

Today I'm joined by KC Davis, a therapist and author of Who Deserves Your Love, to Unpack why so many couples get stuck having the same fight over and over again. We talk about the vulnerability cycle, the powerful difference between reacting in panic versus responding in pain, and how the stories we tell ourselves about our loved ones are greatly affecting the way we approach our problems, for better or for worse. We also dive into boundaries, not as rigid rules, but as choices rooted in self-respect, clarity, and values, and how to decide whether to stay, go, or grow within our relationship. While, what we talk about today is most certainly applicable to couples.

It's also relevant to any relationship you cherish. If you've ever wondered, is this normal? Is this too hard or is there a healthier way forward? This conversation will change how you see and show up in your relationships. KC Davis's, compassionate and practical approach to self-care for those dealing with mental health, physical illness, and hard seasons of life has drawn over a million followers on social media.

Her book, how to Keep House Wild Drowning has sold many hundreds of thousands of copies and been a bestseller.

Her new book, who Deserves Your Love, brings her revolutionary perspective, shifting philosophy to the world of relationship struggles. It's also one of the best books I've ever read, and was listed as one of my personal favorite reads of 2025.

Just so you know, KC Davis began her therapy journey as 16 when she entered treatment for drug addiction and mental health issues. After getting sober, she became a speaker and advocate for mental health and recovery. Professionally, KC has worked most of her career in the field of addiction in roles such as therapist, consultant, and executive director.

KC lives in Houston with her husband and two daughters. That episode is coming up after a quick break for our sponsors.

 

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Monica Packer: KC Davis, a warm welcome to about progress. We're so glad to have you back.

KC Davis: Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Monica Packer: We are gonna be talking about relationships today. And actually I think we should start by saying that you are a therapist,

KC Davis: Yeah.

Monica Packer: a lot of people may not know about you even though they have followed you or they've learned from you in the past.

And can you just tell us a little bit about that part of your life before we head into our topic?

KC Davis: Mostly when I was doing therapy, I did addiction work, so I worked with people that had active addictions or were in recovery from addiction, or I worked with family members and I worked in usually like acute care settings, so like residential rehabs, iops, um, which is intensive outpatient.

My favorite thing really was to work with families, so I would run these workshops, these like weekend workshops about boundaries and about how to. Really help support and interact with their loved one that was struggling with addiction. So that was, that's kind of my therapy background.

Monica Packer: Yeah, and it's clear how much that has informed your work in all facets, even though there's different branches of it. I really loved getting into more of your head as a therapist with this book and how your experiences with your clients informed so much of what you have to teach about relationships in ways that are a lot different than what the zeitgeist is currently headed.

I think in terms of pop psychology and maybe some mistranslations of good therapy advice, we're gonna speak to that. But I wanted to start with just this conundrum. We all face relationships when we know they're hard, but we also don't . The, these lines about how hard is too hard and also what the real problem is if it's us or the other person, or something in between. I wanted to hear from your experience what you find the root problem is to many, to most relationship struggles. I.

KC Davis: Yeah, so. There's kind of two things that I like to say when it comes to that. The first one is that I kind of give this like guiding principle in the book, like right before we start, which is that a good relationship, when it's good, it's really good, and when it's bad, it's safe.

Monica Packer: Hm.

KC Davis: Because I think the two mistakes that I see people make is, and that I've made personally in my life is like we, we either are in a relationship where when things are bad, they are unsafe.

So either they're physically unsafe, they're psychologically unsafe. So we have someone who, you know, when they get angry. All bets are off. There's cheap shots and there's cruelty and, or there's maybe even just there's a competition. You know, you don't feel like someone is really for you, even when things are bad but when we hear like, oh, relationships are hard, guys, just, you know, you have to work at it.

You know, sometimes we mistakenly think like, well, okay, I. Then this is normal. Um, and so that's why I always say like, when things are bad, they're safe. Like you don't feel like a person is waiting to use your weakness and vulnerability against you to hurt you. , And you know, obviously we all make mistakes.

We can all sometimes lash out, but there's a difference between, making mistakes and someone having just like this pervasive pattern of you feel like you have to hide your vulnerabilities from them 'cause it's gonna be weaponized against you.

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

KC Davis: And then when I say that relationship, when they're good, they're really good, is because sometimes we, whether it's from a traumatic background or or something else, we're in a relationship that is safe, this person is good to us, but we don't really feel.

Like, we're in love with them. We don't feel this passion towards them. Maybe we just are so glad to have someone that is safe and we think, okay, well, you know, relationships are work. You gotta work at it. And it's like, yeah, but like you, you should be with someone that you feel excited about. And so I like to kind of say that off the bat because when I say that the, the, the vast majority of relationship problems are.

Of people that kind of find themselves at an impasse where they're having the same argument over and over. What we're really looking at is there's this kind of theoretical framework, um, created by a couple of clinicians, and it's Michelle Shankman and Mona Fish Bain, and both of them came up with this framework called the vulnerability cycle.

And it's this idea that all of us have vulnerabilities or sensitivities, things that really kind of touch a nerve for us. Like uniquely touch a nerve for us. And then we also have defense mechanisms and we develop these defense mechanisms really to deal with these vulnerabilities that we feel.

And so sometimes it comes from our family of origin. So maybe if you grew up with a really, really cold mom, you kind of have this sensitivity towards feeling ignored or dismissed,

Monica Packer: Okay.

KC Davis: and maybe you've developed a defense mechanism and. There's so many different ones, like you could decide, okay, I have to get loud, I have to be loud and dramatic, and, clingy so that this person cannot ignore me.

Or you might go in the opposite direction. You might go, well, I just need to shut down all of my needs and wants so that it doesn't hurt so bad that this person ignores me.

Monica Packer: Hmm.

KC Davis: And we developed these things in childhood, and again, it could be family of origin, it could be something else. For example, most men have a sensitivity around masculinity just because of our cultural framework about like, oh, are you man enough?

And so they feel. Really vulnerable around something that society would say makes them less than a man, right? And so they would develop a defense mechanism against that. Maybe it's, you know, I shut down my feelings because I feel like expressions of emotion are not manly enough, right? So whatever it is, we, everyone has these unique sensitivities and these unique defense mechanisms.

And oftentimes when we get with someone else and they have their own. Sensitivities and defense mechanisms. We can kind of get locked in this cycle where my defense mechanisms are sort of triggering your vulnerabilities and then your vulnerabilities are activating your defense mechanisms. And then those defense mechanisms are activating my vulnerabilities and it becomes the cycle.

And both of us developed these stories that we're telling ourselves about the other person. And so

Monica Packer: Yeah.

KC Davis: one. Kind of simple example would be if I am a woman who grew up with a man that was like, maybe my dad was really angry and yelled a lot, and so I develop a, um, response to that or a defense mechanism to that, which is that I become really cruel and hypercritical because, you know, I'm used to arguing with my dad where it's like shots fired and that's kinda just how my family did it, right.

But let's say that I'm with someone in a relationship. Let's say that I'm with a man and he grew up with a very cold, mother, and that mother was really critical and, and withdrawing of affection. And so what he learned was, you know, if I am mean enough, you know, critical enough, that'll stop. And we get in a relationship with each other it starts out innocently enough. Someone makes a mistake and, and I say something and he takes that as a criticism, and his response is to get angry about that because he's having a feeling and he, you know, it's, it's a vulnerable feeling. And getting angry is easier than that. And now I am experiencing this vulnerability around angry men.

And I'm going this jerk, he's out to get me. He's a bad guy. And I start being really mean to protect myself against that. And of course now I'm being mean and I'm saying really awful things, and that's sort of hitting his vulnerability about being criticized. And so he gets angrier. One, one other way that we see this really commonly is between someone whose defense mechanisms are to lean in and push, and someone whose defense mechanisms are to pull away and shut down.

And, and that is kind of one of the more common ones because let's say that I have a vulnerability around being abandoned. And the key is, is that I've developed this vulnerability because I was at one point actually abandoned whether physically or emotionally, but now I read that abandonment in even when it's not happening.

So. My partner, and again, I'm saying partner, but this could be a, a parent or a friend or a roommate. It can really be anyone in your life. But for sake of example, let's say I have a partner who, their defense mechanism, when they feel overwhelmed, when they feel criticized, is that they shut down and they wanna be alone and they walk out.

Well, every time we get into an argument and things get heated anytime they walk out, I perceive that as abandonment. And then my defense mechanisms of I'm gonna get hysterical. I'm gonna get loud, I'm gonna push, I'm gonna be mean, right? Those come out. But then if my partner has these vulnerabilities around not being good enough and the angrier and more critical I get, the more they begin to read that as, see, I'm not enough.

I'm not enough. You'll never be enough. Let's just shut down and pull away. And it's like we, we are in this cycle where the, the harder both of us bur down into these defense mechanisms, the worse we make each other's, vulnerabilities and, and subsequent defense mechanisms and it just goes on and on and on and on.

​

Monica Packer: Okay. I think as we're listening, we can identify already some things and within our relationships, whether it's with a partner or maybe another loved one, or a child or a parent, sibling friend, where we're like, oh, this is beginning to make more sense why we're struggling because maybe we have. Such different vulnerabilities or ways of moving through them. And you know, as I've been listening to you and the stories in your book were so helpful, by the way. I loved being able to see those case studies and being able to relate to certain ones even more specifically. but as I was listening to you, I was thinking, so to be in a healthy relationship, not removed from the cycle.

Like you're still gonna have these right.

KC Davis: Everyone has them. Really the key is not to never have vulnerabilities. It's not to never have defense mechanisms. The key is, and yeah, we wanna work on that. Maybe I wanna address kind of when I'm feeling vulnerable and have some better tools to deal with those feelings than the defense mechanisms. But the real first step and the real key is challenging the stories that we tell ourselves

Monica Packer: Okay.

KC Davis: the other person.

Monica Packer: Hmm.

KC Davis: Because you know when you get a couple in your office and doing therapy, and you have one that's shutting down and pulling away, and you have another one that's getting loud and critical. When you listen to the stories that people tell themselves about that behavior, a large part of the pain and, and the activation is coming from that story, right?

And so if my partner shuts down and pulls away, and the story I have about that is this cold-hearted jerk, he does not care about my pain. That story is what's activating my vulnerabilities about abandonment, right? Because if I were to slow down and understand where my partner's vulnerabilities and defense mechanisms come from, it doesn't mean that it wouldn't be painful.

But the story of my partner is overwhelmed and doesn't know how to handle his emotions right now. A very different story than this cold hearted jerk doesn't care about me,

Monica Packer: Okay.

KC Davis: Because one of those stories might be painful and elicit pain because I still crave to be close to him. But the other story elicits panic.

I need to protect myself. I need to protect myself. I need to protect myself. And when we're panicked and we're in that elevated state and we feel like we need to protect ourselves, we are going to reach for the defense mechanism that is closest that we've used most of our life. Right? Which for me would be screaming and getting critical and pushing in and going, you can't, I won't let you leave.

Right? Following you around the house now. Um, and of course, flip side, if my partner's story about me is this total psycho. She, she loves to be right. She loves it when I make mistakes so that she can be right and she can show how I'm not good enough and I'm really not good, you know? But if the story is my partner is terrified

Monica Packer: Hmm.

KC Davis: because she thinks she's being abandoned because she's got something that makes her feel that way again, that's painful.

That's frustrating. It's, it doesn't induce panic in the other person.

Monica Packer: Okay. And so when we're thinking about a healthy relationship, it's owning that we are in these cycle. Together and we have the safety to be in the cycle together. I think also an awareness is what I'm hearing from you, and a curiosity about both sides of that. Like, well, what are my triggers? What is the story I'm telling myself about theirs?

And, and how is that actually coping mechanism, not the just being the absolute worst.

KC Davis: And instead of feeling like it's you. Against them. It becomes both of you together against this dynamic.

Monica Packer: Okay.

KC Davis: And the dynamic doesn't have to completely go away. The cycle doesn't have to stop spinning. But there are things that we can do to slow it down, to pause, to check in, to reconnect. And it's also less about like whose needs are more important.

Because when you get someone that says, well, you know. When I get overwhelmed, I need space to process, and the other one goes well when I get overwhelmed, I need validation and comfort. You feel as though you're in an argument about whose needs are more important or more valid. And that's not true. Like everyone's needs are valid.

So it's more about this collaborative process where we go, okay, like where did these vulnerabilities come from? Like, I wanna understand what you are feeling and what you're afraid of. When we're in these arguments, when we're in these conflicts and we're trying to understand each other and it's about going, okay, what are some ways that we can reconnect, remain connected and support each other even when we're upset with each other, even when we're frustrated with each other.

So for example. It's not, reasonable to say, well, what I need is for you to never leave. I need you to stay and stay engaged. Okay. That person can't do that. Right?

Monica Packer: Yeah.

KC Davis: Um,

Monica Packer: the lean in, lean out kind of people. Alright.

KC Davis: But what might be reasonable is to say, when you need to take a break because you feel overwhelmed, can you communicate to me

Monica Packer: Hmm.

KC Davis: that that's what you're doing?

And can you tell me when we can talk again? Or to say, let's say like I once had a couple where when he got overwhelmed, he would leave the house, get in his car and just leave. He would literally just drive around. And as they were sort of talking about this, one thing she said was like, I, it's, it's you leaving the house.

Like can you just go to another room? And he had to say like, well, when I do that, you follow me.

Monica Packer: Hmm.

KC Davis: And she had to look at like, oh, okay, so I need to change some things and, and if, if I don't follow him room from room and I allow, you know, okay, then yeah, then yes, I'd be happy to just go to the garage apartment or go to my room and shut the door and take some time.

And so she can go, okay, well I can do that. What I need from you then is to verbally say to me like, I care about this and , I'm walking away because I need a minute. Just getting that verbal affirmation will be helpful, and I'm talking about high conflict things right now, but this can be true of small things too.

One of the examples that I use in the book is that if you have, maybe your partner is autistic and they don't like eye contact. But for you, when you're having a conversation and they're looking down at their phone, you feel ignored. You feel like they don't care, and sometimes just changing the story kind of takes care of it.

The person goes, well, no, I'm, I'm not looking at you because actually I find eye contact, um, distracting and I want to hear you, which is why I'm not looking at you. Sometimes you go, oh, well, now that I have a different story about this, I don't care. Look wherever you want.

Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes maybe I have a particular vulnerability about being ignored

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

KC Davis: and it's not about saying, well, you have to look at me because that's what I need, right? Because my needs aren't more important than yours. But it's this collaboration. Is there something we can do where I feel connected to you and I, and I'm understanding your attention that isn't forcing you to do something that makes you frustrated or, or distracted or uncomfortable?

And maybe that's will. You just, it's really the phone. If you just weren't looking at the phone, I think, I wouldn't mind if you weren't looking at me, or maybe it's, Hey, can we have like a routine once a week or once a day where we go on a little walk together and we're side by side, so we don't have to be staring in each other's eyeballs, but I feel like I have your full attention and it can be small things like that as well.

Monica Packer: That's what I love so much about uncovering where we're at within the cycle is. Sometimes it is just those small tweaks that can create bigger changes and create more ease within a relationship for people who are listening and trying to translate this to their relationships. I, there's a couple words you just shared that I wanna just point out. A healthy relationship within the cycles collaborative, it's connected and it's communicative. Um, so I just wanted to point those out. One thing I have a big question about is within this vulnerability cycle, it's really easy for us to identify. other person's defense mechanisms and then probably more easily tie it back to vulnerability. But I feel like, and this is ironic because the whole cycle here is vulnerability. a lot harder to identify what those are. Within ourselves.

KC Davis: Yeah.

Monica Packer: So what advice do you have to someone who doesn't just wanna fix their partner or the other loved one or friend? They also know that they have to work on their side and be able to better identify what their vulnerabilities are and their defense mechanisms, they actually practically do that?

KC Davis: Yeah, so I, I have some prompts in the book where I suggest that you ask yourself like, what are my insecurities?

Monica Packer: Okay.

KC Davis: subjects or behaviors elicit a really strong reaction in me.

Monica Packer: OK.

KC Davis: And then you can also write down like, what are some problems that I tend to have in lots of relationships?

So that kind of repeat, and that can kind of be a key of like, Ooh, I, I might have a part in this dynamic because I keep having it even with different people. You can ask yourself, you know. I like that phrase, like it hits a nerve. I think that that's a really commonly understood way of what we're talking about where like, yeah, it would hurt if you called me pathetic.

It would hurt if you called me ugly, but if you called me stupid, there would be a particular, it's like that hits a nerve for me.

Monica Packer: Yeah.

KC Davis: Um, and then you can kind of explore like, why is that? And for me, like I can, I can reflect back on growing up, having undiagnosed A DHD, not good enough, feeling not pretty enough, feeling not, you know, and this is, I like this story because.

What your sensitivity is isn't always what the insecurity is because growing up my insecurities were, I'm not pretty enough, I'm not feminine enough, I'm not all these things, but what I was was smart and I clung to that smart identity like it was driftwood in a sea of insecurity. And so while, yes, it's painful if someone says, or implies that I am not pretty enough or not feminine enough, what really strikes a nerve with me is someone saying that I'm not smart enough or implying that I'm stupid because that's like the one thing I had.

And so that's the thing that kind of sends me into panic. And so you just kind of have to explore with yourself like, what really gets under my skin more than it seems like other things? Or what do I react more strongly to than other people seem to? And then you can kind of ask yourself like, where in my life have, have I felt that before?

For your defense mechanisms? You can look at. What do I tend to do when I feel panicked in a relationship? When I feel afraid in a relationship? Is, are they there behaviors that I reach for quickly? And you can base that on looking at yourself or you know, feedback that you've gotten from other people.

And I do think, you know, obviously when you think about this as a collaborative process, it makes sense why I start off by saying that a good relationship when it's bad, it's safe. Because like this process requires you be vulnerable. It requires you talk about what your weaknesses are and your vulnerabilities are, and working on this, even if someone else isn't willing to look at themselves, you can still look at yourself.

Um, for example, you know, if you have a father-in-law that's really critical, they may not be willing to look at themselves, but if I'm looking at. The reason this bothers me so much is because I have some vulnerabilities around X, Y, Z, and you know, my defense mechanism is to push back or to pull back, or to people please, or whatever.

It's not that, oh, now it doesn't hurt that my father-in-law is critical, but the story goes from I'm not good enough for my father-in-law to. My father-in-law does not have the emotional maturity to handle his feelings, and that story has nothing to do with me. That's the key. Still hurts, still sucks. I still need to figure out how to deal with it, but that story isn't about me.

And being good enough and that story doesn't create panic in me, that makes me grab for those defense mechanisms and make everything worse. But if you're in a relationship with someone who's not safe. They're incapable of insight or unwilling to really look at themselves. There's only so much you can do to change that relationship or alleviate that pain.

And sometimes you can do a lot just by working on yourself, but you're always gonna hit a point where you can't go further unless they're willing to engage in the process. And that's when you really have to look at, do I even stay in this relationship? How do I put some distance and protection here?

Or if I am gonna stay in this relationship, how do I have good internal boundaries so that I can stay sane in this relationship?

 

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Monica Packer: Okay. So let's talk about that decision.

KC Davis: Mm-hmm.

Monica Packer: then, if they've had that curiosity and the willingness to look into it. You have a fantastic and practical resource in your book called The Decision Tree, and I don't necessarily think you should walk through it all, but maybe you can highlight a couple things that may help people who are just, queuing into your work here and wanting to know, well, what do I do about all this

KC Davis: Yeah. So, you know, I do a lot of videos on TikTok, and one of the biggest questions I would get is like, uh, I would get like a four sentence rundown of someone's relationship and they'd be like, is that normal? Should I stay? Should I leave?

Monica Packer: Yeah.

KC Davis: And it's really hard to give generalized advice about like, well, if they cheat, definitely leave.

Monica Packer: Mm.

KC Davis: Or it's like, well, if they have a disability, like don't drop somebody over a disability. And it's like, that's way too general. Like you really need, much more information. Relationships are much more nuanced than that. And if I had a specific person in front of me, I in very, short few questions could help us get to a starting point of, you know, what do they wanna do.

But, short of being able to ask every single person that I come across those questions, I can't give general advice about when do you go, when do you stay? So I wanted to kind of provide those questions in the book about like, what would I ask you, and I won't go through each of them, but basically it's, it's asking you to make these considerations.

'cause deciding to leave is not a formula, it's not a science. It's more of an art, and so it's about looking at all these different variables and kind of holding them all in your hand and getting clear about the variables and just kind of seeing. How that feels to you and what feels right to you. But you gotta be really clear on the variables first.

So it's things like, you know, is this person willing to work on themselves? Are they capable of insight? Are there kind of emotional or cognitive barriers that they have to being able to have insight or behavioral change? Do you want to be in this relationship? There's a big difference between, I wanna leave, but I feel like I should stay and I wanna stay, but I feel like I should leave.

And where are those shoulds coming from? Are they coming from your real values or are they coming from these sort of outside messages that may or may not be accurate to your situation or applicable to your situation? Are they coming from these feelings of shame? So a, a good kind of example of this is there's a lot of messages out there about whether staying in a relationship makes you brave, makes you courageous, makes you faithful, or whether it makes you a doormat.

Sometimes you'll hear messages about like, you know. I just had to have some self-respect. It's so brave of you to leave and then sometimes you hear like, oh, you've abandoned a person, and we can get really in our heads about our own messages about wanting to be a good person. What that means and kind of get twisted up about what are our own values that we really wanna stick to versus when are we just afraid of these messages we have about what makes you good or bad?

What will my family think? What will my church think? What will the society think? What are the cultural messages that may not be what I actually believe that are kind of, you know, we have that. Laugh about like, shoulding on yourself. I should, I should, I should, I should. And all of that is a really nuanced discussion.

So we wanna ask ourselves, what if I stay in this relationship, am I violating my values? And, and going into, you know, there are some things that are going to be priority every time. Like your physical safety is priority, your psychological safety, the safety of minor children. Those things are priority and there are almost no other.

Principles are values that usurp that. but if those boxes are checked, okay, I am physically safe, I'm psychologically safe, my children are safe. And I'm not super happy in this relationship. But happiness isn't the only value that matters. There are people out there that, that their wedding vows do matter to them.

And there's a difference between your wedding vows, mattering to you because you feel like you'll be bad if you get a divorce or your church won't like you if you get a divorce or you failed if you get a divorce. That's different than someone saying, I have a personal and deeply sacred relationship to my idea of what vows are and sticking to those vows.

Brings me a type of meaning and joy to my life that I want to experience, even if it makes my life harder. And I think that that's a really fine line to

Monica Packer: Hmm.

KC Davis: parse, because honoring a cultural or religious or spiritual or moral value over. Your own, quote unquote, like pleasure, happiness, or comfort, those things can be weaponized really easily to where you are honoring those principles over your own happiness, pleasure, and comfort.

Because of shame, because of fear, because of guilt, because of, you know, I won't feel like a good enough person or a worthy person if I don't, if I don't get this validation of these external sort of morals, that's really different than someone saying. These are values that are deeply meaningful and sacred to me, and I get a sense of purpose and meaning from them that is more important to me than my own comfort right now.

Monica Packer: It sounds like a big part of being able to make choices is to own your choices, um, to really have them be from that sense of self inside you. And that actually speaks, I think, to another, principle in your book or, um, maybe target I guess, of why relationships struggle is that. of knowledge, that lack of identity. Um, you talked about values being part of that. I think we could take a whole hour on that topic alone, but what does that interplay then of that sense of self people are parsing out how their relationships are doing, the decisions they should make within them?

KC Davis: So I like to look at boundaries not as a set of rules or limits or, you know, I'm setting a boundary. I like to look at it as this idea of a sense of self and having a boundaried sense of self.

Monica Packer: Okay.

KC Davis: one of the things that I chuckle at sometimes in interviews, especially like short interviews, like when newspapers will call or articles and they'll say, what do you do if.

Your mom is babysitting your kid and you don't want your mom to show the kid, , tv. You don't like screens, but your mom keeps showing them screens. What do you do then? And you know, we'll talk through like, well, you know, you have that conversation and you maybe explain and, um, okay, well what if she just won't stop?

It's like, well now your choices are to . Either be okay, like accept the fact your kid's gonna see screens, or don't let your mom watch your kid anymore. Like those are your two choices right now. And then someone will go, well, what do we do if the mom is the only source of childcare? You have to use it.

Like, what do you do then? Like what? And it's kind of like people want this like magical therapeutic answer to make a hard decision, not hard anymore, or like to make a hard choice, not suck. And it's like, yeah man. It sounds like your two choices are two choices that suck really badly and like there's no amount of therapizing that's gonna change.

The fact that you cannot control that. Your only two choices right now both suck. The difference is I don't want. To make a decision where you feel like my choices are to do what's right and what I want, or to roll over and take it. 'cause I don't have any control right now.

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

KC Davis: I have a decision, two choices both suck and I have to pick one and I'm going to stand 10 toes down on the one I pick.

I'm gonna sit down. I'm gonna look at both of them. Why are both of them not ideal? What other choices do I have? And at the end of the day, I'm going to have to decide what is most important to me? What am I, what am I willing for things to cost? What other values are at play? What other responsibilities are at play?

And then I'm gonna have to pick one. I'm not a victim of which one I pick. I'm gonna be empowered in what I pick because that's the one that is going to most easily align with what I want or need,

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

KC Davis: that's the one that's gonna allow me to have these boundaries in a situation. But like sometimes you just have two poopy choices is

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

KC Davis: We don't have to totally despair.

 

 

Monica Packer: And, and you know, it's making me realize that you can't really have a healthy relationship and make these healthy choices if you don't have a healthy sense of self. And, before you decide, am I gonna stay, go or do something in between, you have to get clarity on all those things you just mentioned so that you can make these decisions.

You know, you, you spoke about boundaries. I love how differently you frame this in your book. So much of how I think boundaries are mistranslated are from this kind of non-collaborative, which I guess, you know, in some ways that's what boundaries are. They're not necessarily collaborative, but um, maybe non nuanced kind of my way or the highway kind of lines in the sand.

I'm thinking about that relationship you brought up of the potential like autistic partner and eye contact scenario. So a lot of people could mistranslate boundaries is you give me eye contact or I'm out of being. You know, more nuanced about what the boundaries can be. , What do you, just, again, this could be another hour, I, I acknowledge that. If there's one thing you could say about why, how you see boundaries different than most do out there, or how it's mistranslated in the, in the zeitgeist right now. What do you wish people knew?

KC Davis: It's less about what you do in the situation and more about what place in yourself is that decision stemming from. Let's go with that example of, I have a partner and he won't make eye contact. Let's say that you are collaborating and you are really trying, and let's say like at the end of the day you are getting really honest with yourself and saying for whatever reason, maybe it is the depth of your trauma, maybe it is that you have preferences about relationships, and you've looked at whether or not it violates your values to leave this relationship.

And you go, well, you know, um, I've been with this person for three months and, um. I don't like this. I don't like being with someone that can't look me in the eye. I have some issues with, you know, ignoring and I just don't wanna do this the rest of my life. It doesn't mean that I think my partner is wrong or bad or needs to change for me, but I don't want this and I'm not making a comment on whether they're worthy of love the way they are, but.

Because of the nuances in there. Right? I've only been dating three months, you know, I just, I get to not want this, and I'm gonna make that choice and say, Hey, if this isn't something you're capable of doing, I need to go a different way. See, that's a really different scenario. That's a boundary choice.

Choice. But things would be different if someone were saying, okay, you know, I've been. Together with this person for 10 years and, and I knew this going in and I, now I've made these commitments and now we have these kids and now we, you know,

Monica Packer: Yeah.

KC Davis: know what? You just need to change because my needs matter most and I'm in so much pain, and the only way that I can not feel this pain is for you to change and change or I'm out.

Monica Packer: Yeah.

KC Davis: Okay. Maybe that person sits down and gets really honest about their sense of self and their boundaries and goes, okay, is it true that like. Everything would be solved if this person looked at you. Like, are there really some wounds here that maybe you're putting on someone else? Does it like align with your values to demand somebody else change?

Somebody that you knew, like you knew that this was their personality, this was their neuro type going in? You know, that person you know, will come to probably a different conclusion if they're able to be honest with themselves. So again, it's really hard to say you can't look at someone and tell them you change or I'm gone.

Monica Packer: Yeah.

KC Davis: Because some people might be able to make those kind of ultimatums from a, a place of integrity and a place of boundaries because they're seeing things clearly. Other people might make that ultimatum from a place of not being boundaried, from a place of being unreasonable, from a place of being unhealed, from a place of not really being aligned with their values.

And so what I want people to know about boundaries. It's less about what you do. More about like where that decision is coming from inside of you and whether you are clear on what your commitments are, what you feel like your responsibilities are to yourself, what you feel like your responsibilities are to that person, what your other responsibilities are to people in the picture, whether they're kind of like kids or families or, or whatever, what your real choices are.

All of those things matter. But the only person at the end of the day that can judge whether or not you did the right thing is you.

Monica Packer: Well,

Well, KC, I am realizing the questions I sent you

should

have been filled by a three hour interview,

So let's

KC Davis: Reference the book that you have and refer them to that.

this book is just so phenomenal.

Monica Packer: who deserves your love. It, , You? talk about everything we just shared, but in a way more, I would say even more nuanced and even practical way.

I don't know how you did that, by the way. I don't know how you did that, but you did it. And this is one of my favorite books of all time, truly. So I wanted to know, you have such a, a, an amazing community and a broad one, so I'm sure the answers to this will vary, but is there anything that has surprised you about what people have said they got from the book or what it changed for them?

KC Davis: I don't think that there's been anything surprising, which is nice because I, I wanted it to be sort of like a handheld manual, um, of what would I try and teach you in the first six months of therapy? and I think. My favorite feedback is when people say, you know, I didn't know what to do with this relationship and I read this book, and now I feel like I'm on more solid ground.

Either I know what to do now, or, you know, I don't know what to do now, but I know how to think about this and I know how to give myself time to figure this out.

Monica Packer: Mm, amazing. I love that. I love favorite feedback. That's awesome. Um, so we'll make sure we link to where they can get that. I have one final question for you, but before, before we do that, where else should they go if they wanna connect with you or learn more from you?

KC Davis: So my website is struggle care.com. You can kind of get to everything from there. I am at domestic blisters on TikTok. I'm struggle care on Facebook and Instagram. Um, but my website will let you see, like I've got some downloads. , I have two books. I have How To Keep House While Drowning. Um, I Have Who Deserves Your Love?

Both of those. You can get almost anywhere. You can get books. , I've got a TED Talk that's linked on my website that you can see on YouTube or on my website. And, lots of fun stuff there.

Monica Packer: Awesome. Okay. We, we'll make sure we link to that. Our final question is, is a toughie, but I think, uh, a needed one. Um, with so much great information, if there's one small way listeners can take action on what they learned today from this conversation, what do you hope that would be?

KC Davis: I hope that would be that when they're in a relationship and that they start to pay attention to pain versus panic, and sometimes pain causes panic. Because we think I have to do something now. This is urgent. You know, I can't feel this way. Something bad's gonna happen. But just the first step is bringing that layer of self-awareness, of being able to go, what am I feeling right now?

And is there panic involved? And do I feel like I must do something now? Because that is typically that sort of key of like I'm kind of entering like a fight or flight and I'm probably quickly gonna reach for a self-defense mechanism versus being able to choose a different response and,

it's okay if you still reach for the self-defense mechanism. It truly starts with just the self-awareness.

Monica Packer: Okay. Well KC, this has been the best I, I wish I could have you every single day, but I just wanna personally thank you for this book and all that you poured into it, as well as the great work that you do online and for being yourself, which is one of the biggest things I think people love about you. I'm really grateful you took the time for us today. Again,

KC Davis: Thank you so much.

Monica Packer: well done. That was awesomely.

 

I hope this episode gave you the hug and kick in the pants you need to grow. I'll now share the progress pointers. These are the notes I take so you don't have to, and those subscribe to my newsletter. Get them in a graphic form each week. You can sign up at about progress.com/newsletter.

Number one, a healthy relationship is safe even when it's hard. Number two, most relationship struggles come from the vulnerability cycle. Number three, the story you tell yourself about your loved one matters more than the behavior alone. Number four, healthy conflict is collaborative, not you versus them.

And number five, boundaries aren't about control. They're about clarity and self ownership. Again, an expanded version of those notes are shared in the graphic form for the newsletter. Go to about progress.com/newsletter. This podcast is listener supported. This month we are doing a special here to stay 250 supporters drive to ensure that about progress.

Doesn't just make it to its 10 year anniversary, but make it so it's here to stay. Supporters get access to three levels of exclusive benefits from more time to more content. With me at a very low amount each month, starting at just $2 a month. Every dollar makes a difference. I welcome you to join the Club by going to about progress.com/support. You can always support the show for free. Keep listening, share the show and a really big one. Leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and doing so automatically submits you to the annual favorite things, giveaway that we do each fall. Thank you so much for listening. Now go and do something with what you learned today.

 

Her book, how to Keep House while Drawn Her, her book, how to Keep House while her book, how to Keep House while Drowning Her book, how to Keep House while Drowning is currently. Her book, how To Keep House Wild Drow, gosh, I can't say it.

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