Stop Doing it All: How to Get Your Kids to Help, Without Nagging || with Sam Kelly

If you've ever felt like you're the only one who notices what needs to be done in your home—and you're tired of carrying that invisible weight—this episode is for you. I'm sitting down with Sam Kelly, therapist-turned-coach and author of the upcoming book Notice and Do, to talk about how we can teach our kids to share the mental load without adding another complicated system to our plates. We dive into what invisible labor really looks like (the brain work and the heart work), why noticing is a learned skill just like tying shoes, and how one small daily practice can transform your household over time.

Sam's story hit me hard—she had the same light bulb moment I did, realizing that by doing it all ourselves, we're unintentionally teaching our kids that burnout is just part of being a mom. We talk about moving from martyr energy to mentor energy, letting go of perfectionism around chores, and raising kids who become cycle breakers. If you want practical, deeply validating advice that will lighten your load and change the narrative for the next generation, you won't want to miss this one.

Complementary episodes: Fixing the Labor Disparity at Home

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TRANSCRIPT

Sam: [00:00:00] When kids start to learn about invisible labor and they have an opportunity to practice sharing the mental load in age-appropriate ways every

Monica Packer: Okay.

Sam: to become more empathetic. , They start to notice people too. So it's a skill that extends beyond just themselves. But there's a difference between allowing that to happen naturally versus requiring, , emotional labor of them, because that hard work is our job as the adults.

 

 

Monica Packer: Hi, this is Monica Packer, and you're listening to About Progress, where we are about progress made practical So Brad and I regularly feel like we want to light our basement on fire. It's where all of our kids' bedrooms are. It's also where all their toys are, their books, their games, everything you can think of.

And at least half the time, it's a total disaster. Most of my mommy tantrums over the last five years we've lived in this home have been about [00:01:00] the basement And just how quickly it becomes its own level of chaos. We require our kids to clean up after themselves. We try to teach them how.

We check in on it regularly, . but somehow it's like our kids can't naturally see what our eyes see and do things the way we would do them. Maybe you have a space like this, or perhaps it's your entire home, where you feel like you are the only one who notices what needs to be done, and you're mostly doing the work yourself, or people help because it's you directing them.

And I'm guessing you're plain tired. Today's episode is going to be for you. Today, I'm talking to Sam Kelly about how we can teach our kids to share the mental load, one small notice and do at a time. This isn't about creating perfectly helpful kids or adding another complicated system to your plate.

It's about raising capable kids, lightening [00:02:00] our own loads, and breaking the cycle we don't want the next generation to inherit. Sam Kelly is a therapist-turned-feminist coach for mothers. She teaches busy, overwhelmed moms how to break the cycle of motherhood burnout and share the mental load of managing a home with the whole family by empowering kids to be proactive household contributors.

Sam and I have been online buddies for years. I have wanted to have her on About Progress for, , forever, and I am so pleased to host her, especially because we are approaching the publication of her first book, Notice and Do. The subtitle here is just fantastic: Raise Capable Kids, End Motherhood Burnout, and Lighten Your Mental Load.

So be sure to check out Sam on Instagram and to pre-order her book, Notice and Do, today. Before we begin, this episode is one you're gonna need to share with your moms in the group chat, with your spouse or partner in the home. [00:03:00] This is one to copy the URL and text it to them while you listen.

Next up after the break, my interview with Sam

 

Monica Packer: You are not bad at habits. You've just been using methods designed for men. My first book will be published this fall. It's called Sticky Habits: A Woman's Guide to Reclaim Happiness, Ditch Perfectionism, and Create Habits That Last. It's set to release September 8th, but you can pre-order the book right now for three special pre-order bonuses, from a listening companion guide that took me hours and hours to create to a free pass to my online course, Finding Me, and our exclusive virtual launch party on September 8th with some special guests, This book is not about doing more. It's about building habits that survive real life, creating routines that flex instead of break, letting go of perfectionism that keeps you quitting, and learning how to keep promises to yourself.

and that's even on the hard days. [00:04:00] In a world of self-help that too easily ignores the invisible labor women carry, that changes everything, because women must do habits differently. Sticky Habits will teach you how. Please pre-order the book now and check out the special pre-order bonuses again by going to stickyhabitsbook.com.

That's linked for you in the show notes. I am so thrilled for this book to be out in the world. It is several years in the making, and I know it will change so much for you. Again, go to stickyhabitsbook.com to pre-order the book now

 

 

Monica Packer: Sam Kelly, it is such a joy to have you on About Progress at long last.

Sam: I know. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Monica Packer: Yeah, we've been online buddies for a very long time, so I've been s- very long time. I've been so eager to hear more about your book that's coming out this fall. I pre-ordered it.

I can't wait to get it in my hands. Um, but it's about something that is so impossibly hard [00:05:00] to talk about and piecemeal, but that every single woman listening lives out all day, every day, and it's the disparity of labor in their homes, and how to better manage that in terms of teaching their kids to better do their part without having to be told what to do.

So let's begin, though, with your own story on this. I think that's a really important starting point for any person who's listening. I wanna know more about what inspired the changes that you chose to make as a family.

Sam: Yeah. So a few years ago, it was in 2022, um, I hit a real wall in the then inequity, the relationship with my husband.

Monica Packer: Hmm.

Sam: we had been married at that point for 12 years and, , I just, I just woke up one morning and was like, "I cannot do this anymore. I'm the invisible engine under the hood that's keeping our entire family moving forward, and he is capable of so much more."

So we started [00:06:00] having the really hard but necessary conversations, um, and we're like laser-focused for a full year. Um, it's, it's still something we're working on every day, right? Like equity is not a destination, it's a journey. Um, but within that year, we made a lot of progress in the equity in our relationship and him being able to see for himself what needs to be done without relying on me to point it out or give him a to-do list first. , And then it's a Friday night, I'm making a Saturday morning chore list for my kids, and I just have this huge light bulb moment where I like drop the red magic marker to the ground and I'm like,

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Sam: doing? I just spent the last year of my life teaching an adult man how to not rely on me to give him assignments. Why am I still teaching my kids to rely on my brain to see what needs to be done to do all the noticing work for them instead of teaching them to see those things for

Monica Packer: Hmm.

Sam: We're no longer [00:07:00] perpetuating this cycle. This ends here and now because noticing is a learned skill, just like learning how to tie your shoes or learning how to brush your teeth. Kids can learn how to notice. And so the next morning I was like, "Okay, guys, doing something different. We're gonna do notice and do, you get to choose what you notice." Um, we still have routine expectations as well, so they can learn how to do the actual tasks that they're g- encountering. But, uh, that, that was like the origin story of notice and do, and then it just really snowballed and evolved from there and, , and yeah, here we are.

Monica Packer: You know, I think everyone who hears that story, one, relates to it, but two, is like, "Okay, wait, so can you help me fix my, my, my husband or my, my spouse or partner here?" Like, but our conversations could be more about the kids specifically, although I'm sure that's a whole other discussion. But I love to see how that translated to realizing there's an invisible cycle happening in our family [00:08:00] that needs to no longer be invisible.

But the one big conundrum with this is because it's so unseen,

Sam: Yeah.

Monica Packer: the lives that they're living and how much they're impacted by this invisible labor. So can, can you flesh that part out for us a little bit? Because even when we s- uh, you know, you know I sp- speak to invisible labor in terms of habit formation.

Whenever I talk about it and I'm trying to explain what it is, even I'm like, "Wait, wait. I, I gotta, like, actually give you tangibles about what invisible labor is." And each time I'm like, "What is it? What is it?" And I, like, am scrambling, but I'm like, "I know this. It's a mile-long list." But how would you paint that picture to women who are like, "I c- you know, I know I do a lot, but is it, like, really that much?

Is it really as much as I think it is?"

Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I refer to invisible labor, I call it like an umbrella, right? The invisible labor umbrella. And to keep it simple for my mind, [00:09:00] I kinda see it as there's two aspects that fall underneath the invisible labor umbrella. There's the brain work and the heart work. The brain work is the mental load.

So the mental load isn't the physical tasks themselves, even though those tasks like cleaning a stove top, doing the laundry, sweeping up the crushed Goldfish crackers, those can feel invisible, right? Because people often don't know that you're actually doing them. , But the mental load is all of the brain work required in order to make the physical tasks even possible. So let's talk about like the dishwasher. It's not the fact that you're unloading the dishes, it's the fact that you notice the dishes needed to be unloaded. The fact that you know whether or not you're running low on dishwasher detergent or rinse aid, um, knowing where the obscure things like the cake pan or whatever go

Monica Packer: Hmm.

Sam: Is the mental load. And then the heart work is the emotional labor. That's like being the one that everyone turns to for comfort and support, , being the like emotional [00:10:00] temperature gauge for your house, being the emotional safety net for your kids. , So those are the two main pieces of invisible labor.

And in terms of kids and what we're teaching kids, it's f- primarily focused on, , the mental load, right? Because we wouldn't ask our kids to do the emotional labor of parenting.

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Sam: that when they learn how to-- when they learn about invisible labor, when they have a chance and an opportunity to practice, um, participating in sharing the mental load every day, they do start to become more empathetic.

They do start to notice people as well. So that's just a really awesome natural extension of that. But we're not expecting

, but for women, in regards to your

Monica Packer: Hmm.

Sam: the exhaustion, the loneliness, the resentment that you feel is real and it's valid, um, and it's there for a reason.

And I think we are very, very good at talking ourselves out of those feelings because that's what we've all been conditioned to do, [00:11:00] is just shove it down, shove it down. Don't be mad. Don't start a fight. Just keep going. , And that's how we stay stuck in this loop, where we might have some level of awareness of what's going on, , but it can often feel too hard to fix. When kids start to learn about invisible labor and they have an opportunity to practice sharing the mental load in age-appropriate ways every

Monica Packer: Okay.

Sam: to become more empathetic. Um, they start to notice people too. So it's a skill that extends beyond just themselves. But there's a difference between allowing that to happen naturally versus requiring, , emotional labor of them, because that hard work is our job as the adults.

 

Monica Packer: Okay. I really appreciate that distinction. And, um, we're [00:12:00] gonna make a couple others too that I know people are already gonna be like, "But, but," but that I think is the biggest one. It's not their job to carry the emotional labor. It's their job to start noticing more about the brain work that is required to be part of a household.

So you did say notice and do, like those, those three can Can you share with us how you taught that with your kids in terms of the distinctions? And I know it's primarily gonna be with the noticing. I think that seems like the most important part because a lot of kids learn how to do from day one while the mom primarily is still carrying that brain work piece of it, of directing things.

So I'd love to hear how you taught that to your kids.

Sam: Yeah. So what we did was we went on what we call a noticing walk around the house, and we took just like 15, 20 minutes, and we focused on the main, um, like communal areas of the house, like the kitchen, the living room, the dining room if you have one, bathrooms, um, playroom, uh, [00:13:00] and just went through room by room.

And you're gonna sound a little bit unhinged because this is the, like, automatic brainwork that you have been doing 24/7 on autopilot always. But kids don't know what they don't know. So this is

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Sam: to pull back the curtain and show them what goes into having awareness of what needs to happen.

So, for example, in the kitchen, um, so I'm noticing that there are plates left out on the kitchen counter. Those go-- If they're dirty, those go in the sink. I'm noticing that there's cereal boxes left out. We're gonna close the cereal box and put it in the, um, pantry. What else can you notice? Sometimes you need to look down on the floor.

Is there anything that you can notice on the floor? See how there's crumbs around the stools. gonna grab the vacuum real quick or the broom and take care of those." Same thing in the bathroom. Um, when there's like an orange ring around the toilet bowl inside, that's your cue that it needs to be scrubbed.

This is where we keep the supplies for that. Um, when the garbage in the [00:14:00] bathroom is about this full, this, that's when you know to empty it. Another thing you could notice would be the sink. This is how to quickly wipe it down and get rid of the toothpaste gunk. So again, very, very specific. Things that we think, "Oh, they should already know this." Don't assume that. Really verbalize it and walk them through. So once they understand how to notice and what they're looking for, the next piece is we're going to tell them, "You get to do one notice and do every day.

Monica Packer: Okay.

Sam: C- Go do it, um, complete it, and then come tell me what you did." So we're enforcing that, like, good communication and teamwork aspect. then in order to prioritize the work, we're going to put the noticing work before they have access to just their everyday stuff like, um, phone, screens, friends, activities, sports. We're not saying, , "Do this and we'll give you a reward." We're saying, "No, this is just part of being in a family, and learning how to prioritize this work is also a [00:15:00] really important life skill, skill because life just doesn't ever slow down. So we're gonna teach you how to do it first, and then it unlocks everything else, like the privileges." So we make sure that it happens without us needing to be like the constant reminder or the micromanager. Like, they can do it whenever they want, but it has to come first.

Monica Packer: Beautiful. You know, I'm realizing a lot of us have had these moments where we're trying to share with our families, like, "Do you know all that I do?" Or, "Can you not see what I see?" Or, "How do you not know that that needs to be done?" Like, we've

Sam: Right.

Monica Packer: those moments, but they're often done with exasperation at best, but oftentimes with resentment and burnout, and even falling apart or having a mommy tantrum.

I, I think that's... We, we all have had a moment like that, at least one. So how can we teach this from a different place?

Sam: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that distinction is so important. [00:16:00] Um, I talk about the difference between martyr energy and mentor energy.

Monica Packer: Hmm. Yeah.

Sam: energy is exactly what you d- explained,

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Sam: I just wanna take a moment to say, like, it's so valid. It's so valid. It's so real. Of course, you feel this way. And the way that we step into mentor energy is being like, "Okay, this rage, this resentment is real, and I'm going to spin it into gold. Instead of dumping it on my kids, I'm spinning it into gold and using that, um, rage to fuel me to teach my kids a different way and to say, 'No, th- this ends here.' I don't-- I'm not setting up my daughters to be in the same situation where I was, where I woke up one day and was like, 'How did this happen?' Like, I'm being crushed, and no one else can see it.

And I'm setting up my son to walk into a partnership, or even just with roommates, 100% aware of what the mental load is and fully prepared to share it and not expecting anyone to just silently [00:17:00] carry it for him." And when I s- view that, like I keep that long-term goal and vision in my mind, and I can see the, that this is how we move that needle and set our kids up for something different, that is what helps me stay focused on, "Okay, just a little bit at a time.

One notice and do a day is enough, and this is not my kids' baggage to carry. It's valid baggage, but it's mine to deal with, we're going to... And this, this, this ends here."

Monica Packer: Okay. So the other thing that I can see, like, you know, I was like, there's one o- there's gonna be other kind of points where you're like, "I need you to talk about this thing," and, and direct that. I think a lot of women, whether or not they're coming from that martyr energy or the mentor energy, the hardest part of all of this is it's not overnight.

Sam: Yeah.

Monica Packer: It's really easy and tempting to just fall for this idea that you can be like, "All right, everybody, notice and do. That's it." And then kind of like [00:18:00] walk away and/or get really frustrated when things don't change right away.

Sam: Yeah.

Monica Packer: So can you speak to the long game piece of this? One, validate it. Like, how is this really a long game?

But also, two, how can we move forward with that long game in mind without falling back into that martyr place again?

Sam: Mm-hmm. Yeah. mean, it's like a continual, like, self-check For yourself. , And I will say too, once you start doing this, um, and letting it be as simple as one notice and do a day. I was talking to my friend and she was like, "I just get so frustrated," 'cause I'm like, "Just open your eyes. How do

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Sam: They're

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Sam: it." And I, I think it's like, are they not getting it or are we expecting more than is necessary for us?

Monica Packer: Okay.

Sam: we want that. We want that. , So it's kind of viewing it through a different lens of instead [00:19:00] of this being like expecting our kids to skip through a house and like straightening pillows and wiping down counters and slinging grocery bags while whi- you know, whistling while they work, um, it's letting it be one notice and do a day and understand that that moves the needle. And, , once they start doing it, it's really cool 'cause you'll be surprised what they start doing.

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

Sam: Focusing on what is happening right now,

Monica Packer: That's beautiful.

Sam: You'll get like notes from their teachers like, "Oh, so and so stayed after recess, um, to help clean up the sports equipment without being asked." Um, and I, and I get messages like this from tired, busy moms every single day in my DMs. So it's not just like my kids, um, but it's moms from all around the world saying, "I can't believe that they did this." Or, um, like I'll, I'll give you some examples 'cause I feel like it helps to hear what is actually possible

Monica Packer: be great.

Sam: [00:20:00] like my, um, 12-year-old son, um, with autism, , passed the laundry, asked, like called to me, "Mom, do you have anything that you need to throw in a load? I'm gonna start it right now." and her husband just like look at each other like deer in the headlights like, "What is happening?" He just saw it needed to happen and decided to get on with it. , Or like my teenager cleaned the kitchen, the entire kitchen for the first time. Never in her life has she done that before, and she said she noticed it needed to be done.

Monica Packer: Huh.

Sam: most resistant kid who has refused any and all cleaning up until this point in her life, um, was emptying the dishwasher and, uh, and, and made my bed this morning. And she just did it without being asked because she knows it's a required thing, and she saw that that's what needed to happen. And so it's like you don't realize how much you've been carrying until tiny, tiny, seemingly insignificant pieces of that load start to be lifted, it's shocking [00:21:00] how much it feels like a Because it's not all on you, and every kid is doing at least one thing a day, and how that compounds on itself and how it feels to you.

And so all these things help make it easier, so it doesn't have to be perfect. Like I had one mom told me, "Tell me nothing is perfect, but everything is better."

Monica Packer: Hmm. Huh. Hmm.

Sam: Sums it up right there, you

Monica Packer: Yeah.

 

I have a question for you busy moms. When was the last time you got to spend a little time learning about you? Not how to be a better mom, not how to do more for your family, but how to feel better, live better, and feel a little more like yourself again. That is exactly why I created the More for Moms Conference, and it's back for its second year, and I want to personally invite you to attend.

The More for Moms Conference is a free online event [00:22:00] with 25-plus experts that will help you find more in five areas of your life: your happiness, habits, health, home, and hobbies. Our conference will start September 28th, and you can watch the speaker sessions or listen on the go completely for free for seven full days with the Basic Pass.

Or with the affordable All-Access Pass, you can get lifetime access to ad-free versions of all speaker sessions and in addition to that, get exclusive bonuses and even a copy of my book, Sticky Habits, sent to the US address of your choosing. For a limited time, you can use the code listener to get $10 off the All-Access Pass at aboutprogress.com/moreformoms.

This conference isn't about adding more to your already long to-do list. Instead, it's designed specifically for moms with very full lives who are ready to feel more like themselves again. Because being a good mom does not require you [00:23:00] becoming less of a person. You don't need to do more.

You need more of you. PS, your kids need that too. So put yourself back on the list and join the More for Moms Conference now. Sign up for free with the seven-day Basic Pass or get lifetime ad-free access with the All-Access Pass using the code listener to get $10 off for a limited time.

Head to aboutprogress.com/moreformoms to grab your spot. Again, that's aboutprogress.com/moreformoms. I can't wait for you to join us.

 

 

Monica Packer: One thing that helps me with that long-term game is to remember I live with humans,

Sam: Oh, yeah.

Monica Packer: and that I'm a human too.

Sam: Yeah.

Monica Packer: You know, I remember one of the, our first moments within our marriage where I was like, "Hey, like, I'm doing this every time, and I don't have to be," was with the soap in our shower.

Sam: Mm.

Monica Packer: Like, I remember coming out of the shower one time, like e- every time that [00:24:00] it would run out, it'd just be an empty shelf until I would go and get it and restock it. And I think one time I came out and told Brad, "I don't have to be the only one that restocks the soap."

Sam: Right.

Monica Packer: Now, that was probably year five. We're now year 19 almost.

I don't think I've replaced the soap since.

Sam: Yeah.

Monica Packer: human too, and I, you know, I don't always notice and do as well. So it's just a good reminder for me. They're human too- And while I want things to be magically overnight poof, like all the invisible labor is gone, it will take time 'cause they're human and I am too, and I f- don't see things or I forget things or I procrastinate things too.

Sam: Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I like that a lot. And I think, if you think about it like teaching your kid to tie their shoes, like that can be a really tricky thing sometimes. Their little fingers stu- fumble. It-- they have to practice again and again and again. , And you know if they keep trying, it will [00:25:00] click. Like, there's no part of you that's ever like, "They're never gonna be able to tie their shoes, and I'll fail them as a mother," da, da, da, da.

Like, that's just not part of the equation for us. and so taking it back to like how, how would this feel if it was just teaching them to tie their shoes again and again and again helps to kind of neutralize the, again, valid emotions and the rage and resentment and just k- kinda keep it a little bit more grounded and simple, and it's, this is just a life skill like anything else.

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm. So I love that you are helping us see that noticing in and of itself is a huge skill, and that's the one that we're trying to focus on the most. But then we have the doing part as well, which is another level and another... I mean, like every single task is its own skill. And with that, that's where I see a lot of women dropping off on this whole shift because they think it's just, quote, easier to do it myself,

Sam: Yeah.

Monica Packer: Unquote.

Like, you know, primarily being like [00:26:00] they don't do it the way I would do it or the way I want it done.

Sam: Right.

So what about this Whole standard thing that becomes an obstacle for us?

There's a lot of pieces to this.

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

Sam: I think the first thing I would say is we talk about, um, a re- like a realistic minimum standard of care.

Monica Packer: Okay.

Sam: And instead of it being The most perfect that it could ever be done,

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Sam: letting it Be good enough.

Monica Packer: Hmm.

Sam: Long game. And I have totally been there, where it's-- I tell myself it's just easier to do it myself. just easier to do it myself. And what I would say to that is we have to choose our hard, because it's really hard actually to do it yourself. ,

Monica Packer: Especially when you account for that like over and over and over and over and over again year after year.

Sam: Yes, and I think what we don't realize is we are actually unintentional.

We're always teaching our kids,

Monica Packer: Okay.

Sam: by doing it ourselves

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

Sam: [00:27:00] Unintentionally teaching our kids that it's the mom/woman's job in the family

Monica Packer: Hmm.

Sam: that burnout just comes with being a mom, that this is just part of the mom's experience. And that is the last thing I want my son and my daughters to know about motherhood. So it's less about adding more onto your plate, like, "Oh, no, now I have to teach this whole new thing." You're already... By doing it yourself, you're already teaching them something. You get a chance now to intentionally choose what story you actually want to instill in them and teach them a different way.

So we're just shifting lanes. We're not like, you know, doing an entirely new thing. We're just taking the energy that we

Monica Packer: Hmm.

Sam: it all ourself and just shifting that energy into teaching them how.

Monica Packer: Love that analogy.

Sam: Yeah.

Monica Packer: One other point that you've shared that I just wanna emphasize again is the age appropriate level too.

Sam: Mm-hmm.

Monica Packer: , And I think that's something we also just wish didn't exist. [00:28:00] Like, I'd love my three-year-old to be able to do his own laundry right now, but not only can he physically not do that, like

Sam: Mm-hmm.

Monica Packer: Washing, you know, the clothes out of the washer, um, it wouldn't be safe for him.

Sam: Right.

Monica Packer: that's something that you detail more in your book is, is, is being able to target what is age appropriate or not. Um, any just quick advice on that though without, you know, having to reveal your whole book away, but...

Sam: Yeah. No, totally. Um, I think about it in terms of like what I call climbing the learning ladder

Monica Packer: Uh-huh.

Sam: a

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Sam: Is going to be kind of on the lower rungs. and that's okay. That's where a three-year-old is meant to be. Um, instead of focusing on, "Oh my gosh, I wish my three-year-old was on the higher rung," or climbing faster or easier, focus on the fact that they are on that learning ladder learning, and that gets to be good enough,

[00:29:00] 

Monica Packer: does that apply to the older kids? Like, you know, I had a client, we were working on her shifting this disparity labor in her home, 'cause it was actually a huge factor in her being able to prioritize herself was this,

Sam: sure.

Monica Packer: know?

Sam: Yeah.

Monica Packer: She had a senior age son, and she was like, "Is this too late?"

You know? And of course my answer was no. But what would you do in, in that case? What would you advise for any parent who's like, "I do have an older child, and there's still a little time, but like how, how do I do that in an age appropriate way for them too?"

Sam: Um, it's never too late to say, "Hey, you get to choose one notice and do of your choosing every single day." And

Monica Packer: Okay.

Sam: We would say, um, like picking up one [00:30:00] pillow is like good, not great. This is the standard that it needs to be,

Monica Packer: Okay. Uh-huh.

Sam: need to wipe down a bathroom. You need to load, do a, a load of dishes. You need to, um, stay on top, like manage your laundry, um, with the assumption that they've been taught how to do that.

Monica Packer: Yes.

Sam: just

Monica Packer: Okay.

Sam: haven't been taught, just get them on the ladder where, and start with what they already know, and then work up from there.

Monica Packer: And what I love about this is the one notice and do a day is doable, but that it builds.

Sam: Yes.

Monica Packer: And so, and then as you're teaching them, "Okay, here's how you do the laundry. Now this is now part of your notice and do repertoire." You know? Like, now this can be part of your notice and do list, or it doesn't have to be that quantified or whatever.

But, but I, I love that it's not just gonna be one thing. Like, this is a way that they start, it's the way they build, and it, it's just a [00:31:00] method to get to that place.

Sam: and kids need structure. So, um, I say start with the one notice and do, 'cause it's so low lift for tired, busy moms to implement and

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: but in terms of, like, their daily expectations apart from that, I have what's called the big three. So

Monica Packer: Okay.

Sam: Daily tasks that they are doing every day, because yes, I want them to have the autonomy to choose what they wanna notice, they also need to learn how to do their laundry, and

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Sam: In. Okay? So, like, my kids

Monica Packer: Hmm.

Sam: of the dishwasher, top shelf, bottom shelf, utensils, like, on a first come, first serve basis, and then they manage their laundry. When we started though, their, quote-unquote, "Laundry managing" was just looking on their bedroom floor and picking up any dirty clothes, putting it in the hamper, and putting clean clothes away.

That was it for laundry. And again, because we've been doing this for three years, we've climbed the learning ladder on the laundry, so now they know how to manage their whole cycle.

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Sam: But [00:32:00] that's all it had to be to begin with. So they were actually doing, um, if you think about three kids doing three daily tasks that teach them that doing part,

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

Sam: then the notice and do on top of it, um, that's a lot of stuff happening that I don't have to do that really, really frees up so much space, um, in your life, because it's less about self-care and more about supportive care.

Monica Packer: Mm. Okay. One other thing I love about your learning ladder is it's less overwhelming for us as moms to teach them and to manage it and to help them gain the skill set. 'Cause when I teach about teaching my kids laundry, I am going back to thinking about, like, my youngest child and them... And I'm trying to teach them everything right away and, like, boom, now it's your job.

But it's like, no, like, what are the small ways we can build up to that

Sam: Right.

Monica Packer: Of just throwing it at them, but also, like, having to manage teaching it to them all at the same time.

Sam: We're just breaking it down [00:33:00] into small pieces, and they just focus on one piece, one rung at a time,

Monica Packer: Okay.

Sam: from there.

Monica Packer: I also love the big three because, uh, you know, part of me was like, so what about other chores? But it's like they do still have other things, other... And, and, and chores you may be managing the, the whole mental- Part, the brain work for it, and, you know, directing them, and that's okay too. Like, there's still gonna be directing going on.

It's not just like, "Okay, everyone, we're noticing and doing, so Mom's not gonna tell you what to do anymore."

Sam: Right. Like, we're, we're the adult, we're the teacher, we're the leader. Like, I tell moms to think of themselves as the coach for their kids,

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Sam: , coach's job isn't to, uh, make sure that everything is done perfectly always. The coach's job is to provide structure and encouragement, and to just let the players learn.

Monica Packer: Love that. So I wanna go back to one more thing before we wrap this up, and it's the reinforcement piece. I know you talked about having, you know, privileges around the home. [00:34:00] Um, but how would you advise people start with even the reinforcement? And I, I just am thinking that, like, that could be tempted to be a whole other reinforcement, managing the parameters, the privileges.

Like, that can become a whole other, like, we're just making this more complicated than it needs to be

Sam: Mm-hmm.

Monica Packer: In order to maintain it. Yeah.

Sam: y-yeah,

Monica Packer: I mean, honestly, in my mind,

Sam: like the

Monica Packer: it's like the most flexibility I have found

Sam: um, all of my kids and my husband have been diagnosed with ADHD.

Monica Packer: with all the like, I mean-

Sam: so it's, it has to be so simple and so doable in order for it to happen. Um, it really is as simple as you gotta do this before this happens.

Monica Packer: It's- Okay.

Sam: Comes to me and says, "Can I go play with friends? Can I go hang out with friends?" Uh, yeah. Have you done your stuff?

Monica Packer: Just the built-in, like, just like built-in if you ask for this,

Sam: Yeah. It's the

Monica Packer: that's expectation, do that.

Sam: Um, they know that they have to do it before screen time. if-- my kids don't have phones, but if [00:35:00] they had phones, they would have to do it before they had access to their phones. Um, and because pre, I call them preexisting motivators. There's so many different preexisting

Monica Packer: Hmm.

Sam: if it's

Monica Packer: Okay.

Sam: for example, for your kid to, um, get it done before like an early morning football practice, that's fine. There's still other things that they can come before, like hanging out with friends or again, access to screens or whatever it is they want to do. The work just has to come first

Monica Packer: Okay. And there's like a ladder of that, too, of privileges almost, you know, starting with some more basic ones, like friends, like ones they really want.

Sam: yeah,

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Sam: mean, it's

Monica Packer: I mean,

Sam: like vary for every kid,

Monica Packer: it's gonna be like

Sam: it's

Monica Packer: varied for

Sam: I think

Monica Packer: every- Sure

Sam: basic things as instead of givens that they get to have access to no matter what, they're privileges, and in order to have access to the privileges, you have to participate in the family work.

Monica Packer: individual. Beautifully explained. Sam, what's on the other [00:36:00] side of this? I mean, you shared some of those stories of people in your community and the examples of the kids noticing and doing. But more big picture, I would say- What do you hope to see change as our upcoming generation of both parents and kids are, are growing?

What's on the other side of this work?

Sam: Um, a really, really big piece of this that we didn't talk about, it's kind of the third aspect. So we have the big three, the notice and do, and then what I call the cycle-breaking conversations, and it's giving kids the language and awareness around these things, mental load, societal expectations for men and women and families, burnout, um, the ripple effect of this work.

So they start to understand the deeper why. Um, and when that language is given to them and that awareness, it kinda clicks everything in place. So we're not just doing this because mom said so. We're doing this for, , because equity is an, a shared family goal, because [00:37:00] in their future lives, , they can lean into something different and something better than what society expects of them. And that is how we break this cycle, because nothing will change if we just keep equity a conversation between only the adults.

Monica Packer: Hmm.

Sam: load is a whole family problem. Whole family problems require whole family solutions,

Monica Packer: Hmm.

Sam: the kids are just as much a part of the family as the adults. And when kids start having the understanding and the opportunity to practice this skill, that's when, like I said, you know, my, my son will walk into a, a partnership knowing what the mental load is and totally, knowing how to share it. Um, and my daughters will expect so much more for themselves, um, than just the, the conditioned like, "Oh, this is what we're supposed to do."

Monica Packer: This is just how it is.

Sam: Yeah.

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.

Sam: that's how we change the narrative.

Monica Packer: Mm-hmm. So in addition to having [00:38:00] more confident, capable kids, we have kids who are cycle breakers.

Sam: Exactly. Yeah.

Monica Packer: So great. Sam, before our final question, where should they go if they wanna get the book and if they wanna connect more with you?

Sam: Yeah. So I think the easiest place is just to check me out on Instagram, samkelly_world. Um, the link in my bio has a place where you can pre-order the book. Um, I also have a free guide. Um, if you wanna listen to the first episode of my audio course for free, you can do that as well. There's a link there.

So there's just lots of good stuff there.

Monica Packer: Awesome. Okay, we'll link that in the show notes. Our final question: what is one small way listeners can do something with what they learned today?

Sam: , Validate yourself. You're not crazy. You're not doing it wrong. You're not failing. Um, you're trying to play a rigged game that never had your best interest in mind to begin with. , And you get to choose right now what you want to teach your kids moving forward, and if you want this for them or [00:39:00] if you want something else, a different, better way for them.

Monica Packer: Beautifully said. Sam, this was so needed. Both deep and practical, which is kind of our two arms of, of what we do in this podcast, but it was, it was both of those things, for sure, and I know this is gonna help so many women, and as part of that, so many households. , So thank you. Thank you for your work, and I hope everybody goes and gets Notice and Deal.

Sam: Thank you. Thanks for having me. This has been great.

 

 

I hope this episode gave you the hug and kick in the pants you need to grow. I'll now share the progress pointers. These are the notes I take so you don't have to. And you can get them in an expanded graphic version by signing up for my newsletter at aboutprogress.com/newsletter. I send it out each Wednesday.

And if there's ever one you hear way past the airing of it, just email us, and we'll email you back with the graphic of the progress pointer from that episode. Number one, [00:40:00] teach your kids to notice, not just do. Number two, start with one notice and do a day. Number three, move from martyr energy to mentor energy.

Number four, lower the standards so your kids can actually learn. And number five, think long term. You're teaching a life skill, not just getting the house clean. Again, that's a shortened version. The graphic is an expanded one of that, but it still has the highlights of what you'll want to take away from this episode

After we recorded, Sam and I talked about the commonalities that we have in our work and also in our upcoming books. I also talk about how to work on the division of labor at home, but in a different way, and I just think they are very complementary together, and I'm so glad we finally got to have this conversation.

I do hope you will make sure you order her book, Notice and Do, and also be sure to pre-order Sticky Habits or order it if you're listening post September 8th. It's a big deal for pre-orders to happen to all beginning authors, I know we would both appreciate that.

This podcast is listener supported. Members of [00:41:00] the Supporters Club make my work with About Progress free and available to all. I don't have to put About Progress behind a paywall because of the Supporters Club. I don't have to add in all these ads. We keep it where it's at because of the Supporters Club.

In return, supporters get access to three levels of exclusive benefits, from more time to more content with me. As of the airing of the show, we will have just had our garden party at my home. That's a yearly event that I host for all levels of supporters, and we do stuff like that together online and in person, and it's always a wonderful time.

So be sure to check out the Supporters Club now at aboutprogress.com/support. Know that you can always support the show for free. The best way to do that is by organically sharing what you like about the show with people in your life. If this episode stood out to you, send it to a friend or family member.

Another free way, and starting to get really important right now, is to leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. We are going to soon have our upcoming anniversary giveaway in November, where the only way you can enter [00:42:00] is by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and I pull from all the ratings and reviews left in our current calendar year.

So it's a win-win. Leave a review to enter in that giveaway now early and also to support me in the work. And by the way, when you enter early, you are more likely to win, and it's good stuff. Thank you so much for listening. Now go and do something with what you learned today

 

 

Monica Packer: Okay, sorry about that. The last second I was like, "Wait, what if you say it wrong?"

Sam: What's your book called?

Monica Packer: What- just in case, I'm like, I, I do-