The Importance of Cultivating the Smallest of Joys, Even Amidst the Toughest of Times || with Diane Shiffer, Your Chubby Vintage Nana
May 11, 2026
As I sat down with Diane Shiffer, I was awestruck by her radiant perspective on joy, especially in a world that often feels engulfed in darkness. Diane, known as the Internet's favorite nana, believes in the transformative power of small joys. As I listened, I realized that joy isn't about waiting for the grand moments; it's about practicing gratitude and noticing the little things that lift our spirits.
Diane's journey is a testament to the strength found in vulnerability and self-compassion. Her book, "The Smallest of Joys," teaches us that embracing imperfections and offering ourselves grace are essential steps to living a joyful life. This conversation reminded me of the importance of rest and grace as fuel for productivity, rather than distractions from it. If there's one takeaway from my conversation with Diane, it's that we should start noticing and celebrating those small moments of joy that we often overlook in our daily hustle.
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TRANSCRIPT
Diane Shiffer: I think there are times when we feel like we don't deserve joy or it's too much for these times. Mm-hmm. But knowing that our joy strengthens us to do important work, the important work that we have that will, um, make the world better. If we allow ourselves joy, we're more equipped for that. So living a joyful life is the most selfless thing we can do.
Monica Packer: Hi, this is Monica Packer, and you're listening to About Progress, where we are about progress made practical.
In ninth grade, the final year of junior high where I grew up, there was a tradition where in the yearbook, under the picture of each ninth grade student, would be a single word that described them. I don't remember the process of how that word was chosen, but I do remember my word. Under my ninth grade picture in the yearbook, it says, "Optimist."
I can honestly tell you that that is not how I would describe myself anymore. On a good day, I would describe myself more with this single word: realist. No matter how you slice it, life is hard. For some of us, that is an understatement, but for all of us, it's true that life is difficult. I don't know about you, but the last few months, maybe years, I have struggled to maintain even my realist identity.
It gets harder and harder to be anything more than bitter, angry, or depressed. I've personally been working to be aware of it. I, I, you know, I try to watch my thoughts. I try to rest so I'm not worn out all the time. I try to prioritize hobbies for that spark of light and joy and fulfillment. And yet, I have to admit to you, I have found it really difficult lately to maintain hope, to feel joy, and all the in-between of those moments.
But I read a book recently that really changed so much for me. It's not about waiting until the schedules free up, or the bank account bulks up, or the hardships fade away. It's about cultivating joy in the smallest of ways, right here, right now. My guest, Diane Schiffer, is the author of that book, called The Smallest of Joys.
It's a collection of seasonal essays that I devoured in two days, and it even made me cry in public. Diane challenges the cynical nature in our world, one that has embedded itself into all of us, and teaches us how to not ignore the hard, but to fight against it by creating small moments of joy. In our conversation today, you will hear more about how to do so yourself.
And why Diane feels it is one of the most important things we can do, not just for ourselves, but for the whole world. Diane Schiffer is a retired teacher, mother of five, and the internet's favorite nana with over one million followers across platforms. She began her career working in day treatment programs for people with developmental disabilities.
She also worked in preschools before becoming a special services coordinator for Head Start. She currently lives in Albion, New York with her youngest daughter, Milan, in a house built in 1930 that is chock-full of the vintage furniture and decor she adores. If you're like me, this conversation is going to bring a tear to your eye.
If you're watching it on YouTube, you're gonna see my eyes well up in tears in ways that is very unusual for me. I wanna encourage you to share this episode with a friend while you listen, copy the URL, and text it to a friend that you are thinking of. That interview is coming up after a quick break for our sponsors.
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Diane Schiffer, a warm welcome to About Progress.
Diane Shiffer: Well, thank you for having me. I'm so looking forward to this chat.
Monica Packer: I'm truly overjoyed to have you, and that is a, a, an intentional choice of words because we're going to be talking about joy to some extent today. Mm-hmm. I know I'm not alone in seeing you as the Internet's grandma or nana or mammy.
As many we say, y- you just bring such cheer- Mm-hmm ... to so many of us online, um, which is a huge contrast to the darkness I think we are all feeling in this world. And so I wanted to start with a b- bit of a belief question for you, and it's about joy. Why do you think small joys matter even when the world is so dark?
Diane Shiffer: Because I think to a certain extent, small joys are all we really have, right?
Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.
Diane Shiffer: They... I mean, we can think of the large joys like, you know, like our wedding or, or something like that, and those are so disparate. Yes. They're years apart generally, right? But day by day, the only thing we really have are those tiny little moments of joy.
And, uh, those are the things that can bring us back to ourselves and can uplift our spirit and, you know, give us hope in the midst of the darkness, you know? A- and you know, you think of, I'm on social media, right? So as you're scrolling through, you see so much darkness of all varieties, right? And it's easy to feel like that's all there is.
But- The little, you know, the little steam wafting off your coffee cup or something. That moment can break through that darkness just a little bit. It's not gonna dispel it completely, you know, but it gives you that little bit of a, little bit of a break in the clouds.
Monica Packer: Well, and I love how you present that because it's not you saying, "Let's put our head in the sands.
Let's pretend- Mm-hmm ... the darkness doesn't exist." It's almost- Mm-hmm ... a form of maybe rebellion or choice. Mm-hmm.
Diane Shiffer: Yes, it is, 100%. It is a, it is a rebellion. It's a rebellion against those, uh, forces or whatever, if you believe in spiritual forces, those forces that would keep us down or those, um, individuals that want us to despair.
And it's ... Having that joy and, and not only having that joy, but living in a joyful way that gi- that you allow others to see your joy. It not only gives- Mm-hmm ... you hope, but it gives them a little bit of hope, too.
Monica Packer: So it's not just for ourselves- No ... which is such an interesting perspective.
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm. It's absolutely not.
I had somebody comment on one of my post once that ... And she was somebody that I, I am sure I agree with her on 99% of the world's issues, right? But she was very critical, and she was like, um, saying like, "This is so entitled. You know, this is so this, this. This is white woman life kind of a thing." She was a white woman as well.
And, um, you know, and I understand that, and I understand that she felt like her rage had power and she didn't wanna let go of it. But that really weakens us, right? And our joy strengthens us. And I think there are times when, when we feel like we don't deserve joy or it's too much for these times. Mm-hmm.
But knowing that our joy strengthens us to do important work, the important work that we have that will, um, make the world better. If we allow ourselves joy, we're more equipped for that.
Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.
Diane Shiffer: Right? Mm-hmm. So living a joyful life is the most selfless thing we can do.
Monica Packer: And perhaps I'd say the most informed thing, too.
Diane Shiffer: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Monica Packer: Which is a different take, I think, than what that woman was trying to bring to mind. Right. It doesn't have to be an either/or. Like, we- Mm-hmm ... it doesn't mean we either are informed and, and always enraged-
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm ...
Monica Packer: or not informed and just so- Mm-hmm ... so happy. It can be we can be informed and choose-
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm
Monica Packer: to cultivate joy.
Diane Shiffer: Right. And so much of life is living in two separate streams or even three or four separate streams at the same time. Like I remember I first, um, really experienced that when my fa- my children were young and my father got a terminal diagnosis, and it just kind of like knocked us all, you know, sideways.
And of course, when you have little ones, they need you, right? And their needs don't, uh, lessen because of the other stresses on us. And I remember thinking during those really hard months that I was living in two streams. I was living in a stream of just deep grief and dread, but also living in a stream of productivity and joy and other things.
And they just were kind of like flowing side by side. And yeah, and I, and I've often thought how would I have survived those months if I didn't have that other stream strengthening me.
Monica Packer: That's such a beautiful image. Yeah. That's gonna stick with me. You know, I'm thinking about the people who are listening, and they think, "This sounds so nice, but I'm not naturally a joyful person."
Mm. "Or the circumstances in my life are not joyful."
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm.
Monica Packer: What would you say to the people who think it's supposed to be natural in order for joy to happen or to be experienced or felt?
Diane Shiffer: I do think there are people that it comes naturally to, and I think that is a wonderful gift that they've been given.
Um, but I think, I know for me, the ... when I really kind of, um, started to learn how to give myself joy and how to live this way was, um, when my husband left me with a house full of kids. And, um-
Monica Packer: Wow ...
Diane Shiffer: yeah, and I can remember the image that I had of myself at that time was I said I felt like I was living in a whirlpool, right?
Mm-hmm. And the, the water was keeping me down, but every, maybe every few weeks, every few months, I'd be able to come up to the surface of that whirlpool, right, and get a breath of air and some sunshine. It was very, very hard. But also during that time, that's when I started like the, um, sit and stare time and things like that, that were just my coping mechanisms, survival mechanisms.
And, you know, sometimes especially if you're not the kind of person that joy comes naturally to, you have to, um, actively seek it out. I talk about joy being, um, in the periphery of your life, and she's patiently waiting there for you, and you can call her out. And then when you have her, when you get her, you, you
Sometimes you just need to hold on with both hands, right? Living a joyful life isn't a passive thing. You don't just wait for joy to, to drop from the heavens upon you. You, you seek it out, and you treasure it, and you value it, and you consider her your companion, right? Mm. It's a relationship.
Monica Packer: Like, it's already there.
Yes. You have to notice it.
Diane Shiffer: Absolutely, 100%. She's always there, and she's always sending out these little, little flickers, little reminders, "I'm here. I'm here," you know? And I've often thought, you know, I talk a lot about, um, you know, the breeze blowing or, or steam coming from my coffee cup or a particularly lovely flower, and those are the things that give me joy.
But other people will get joy from other things. Maybe, you know, like a fast car or, you know, my brother's a mathematician, and I can remember he would get joy from numbers and the way they work. And we have to really pay attention to what it is that, that gives us that little lift, you know? And then when you lean into it, then you- y- you're, like, training yourself.
It's like a muscle, right? Mm. Training yourself to recognize what it is that gives you joy, what it is that lifts you, what it is that strengthens you.
Monica Packer: So it's, it, it's so remarkable to me that this is something that, uh, if I'm hearing you right, it didn't- Mm-hmm ... necessarily come naturally, or at least there were points in your life where it didn't feel natural. Mm-hmm. But it became more of a practice, something you chose to find. And another thing that really strikes me, Diane, is that you talk about the small joys.
A lot of us, I think, believe that joy needs to be big, or we need- Mm-hmm ... to go on this eat, pray, love kind of journey- Mm-hmm ... to rediscover it in our lives. Mm-hmm. And you, you talked about sit and stare time.
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm.
Monica Packer: Maybe you can tell us a little bit about that, but also just how that translates to it's, it is the little things.
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm. Well, you know, the thing, one thing, image that I had in my head when I was, I was actually thinking about the book and the small things, and when you think of a chain, you think of what is the most beautiful, treasured, precious kind of chain? It's got the tiniest, most delicate little links, right?
And that is the most beautiful chain. And, and if we... Like, I talk about stringing the chain with the joy links, you know, around- Mm ... your neck. And, and, um, so- It's easy to think, "Oh, that little joy doesn't matter," but you don't just have one little joy. You are constantly going to have so many little joys in your life once you notice them, right?
And those all gathered together become this, this web almost. And, uh, you know, I think about, you know, you mentioned sit and stare time, and I remember the first morning when I really actually kind of thought about it and made it. And I was working at a job that, it just was so draining. It was so draining.
And, um, you know, my preference has always been to be a homemaker. But of course, when you're a single mom, it's just not an option, right? So I remember I dropped my children off at school and daycare, and all of them were having struggles of various kinds. My youngest was just weeping at daycare. And, um, and I had to leave him, right?
And I went through my drive-through, Tim Horton's drive-through, which was my, my solace, right? Every morning on the way to work, I would stop and get that paper cup of coffee. And I remember I got to work, and it was raining, and I was sitting in the parking lot, and I had like five extra minutes before I needed to go in.
And I thought, "I'm just gonna sit here in the car for, you know, till the last minute," right? And I was sitting there holding that cup of coffee, and the, the beautiful coffee smell was coming up, and it was so warm, and the rain was coming down on the windshield, and the little drops were coming down, and then they'd join together, and then they'd separate.
And I just sat there in that moment and didn't think of anything other than the wonderful smell and the warmth in my hand and the watching that beauty and the, the randomness and the beauty in those raindrops. And somehow it kind of disconnected me from all that anxiety and dread and pressure. And it was only maybe three minutes long, right?
But when I went into work, I felt so much lighter. Just it strengthened me, and it gave me like this little bit of hope, right? And that's when I was like, "I need to, I need to make a practice of this," and I have.
Monica Packer: So we can all borrow your sit and stare time. It's just something you do- Yeah ... almost every morning-
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm
um,
Monica Packer: to sit- Yeah ... and take that moment for yourself But you have so many other practices of, again, I, I think the key here is noticing, as you said. Mm-hmm. But there's also this practice of heart I've noticed in you, and it's how, how you have cultivated this peace about yourself- Mm ... and this form of self-acceptance.
And I, and I, I think it must be really hard to notice the small joys if you are at war with yourself.
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm.
Monica Packer: I wanted to know more about that practice of yours, where it came from, how you learned to find this way of, of, of making peace with yourself and accepting yourself for who you are.
Diane Shiffer: I think, you know, folks always, uh, kind of assume that that came with age, and as I got older and, like, entered retirement, that that's when I was really able to be more accepting of myself.
And that is part of it, definitely. But I think for me, the real, uh, time period of my life when that was crystallized was when I became a mother, you know? And I looked at my children and, you know, we look at our children and I think people think ch- mothers don't see their... We only see the beautiful things in our kids.
But I think, in fact, we see our children's flaws more clearly than anybody else, right?
Monica Packer: That's so true. Yeah.
Diane Shiffer: And but it doesn't matter.
Monica Packer: Mm.
Diane Shiffer: Right?
Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.
Diane Shiffer: And I can remember looking at my children and being like, you know, it, it, it was a revelation to me that their flaws, their, the things that made them challenging, the things that made them, you know, have challenges, bring challenge on themself, it absolutely did not matter.
They were so treasured and loved. And I think I remember once my son, now when he was, this is when he was about three, and he was such a little wild thing. Oh my gosh. He was just, oh my gosh, he was just, just wild. And um- I've got
Monica Packer: a wild three-year-old right now, Diane. Right. My youngest is a wild three-year-old boy.
Diane Shiffer: We used to joke that, uh, he did not have blood. He had tes- pure testosterone coursing through his veins, right? Well, he had a little friend who was just the most i- just the ideal version of the ideal child. Very docile, very sweet, very happy and good-natured, you know. And he was coming over. He was visiting and playing with my son one day.
And I remember looking at him and thinking, actually thinking, "I can't wait till he goes home because I just wanna have Noah to myself." Nothing against that child, but it was almost like a revelation to me that my son in his imperfection was perfect to me. I remember it was almost a revelation for me because my parents, although wonderful, wonderful people and who, um, just were, uh, doing their very best and doing a really good job, you
It was always the sense of what we accomplished and those kind of things were what made us worthy. And so th- the idea that these little flawed beings were perfect with all of their flaws was such a revelation to me that then it, it was like, "Maybe I'm perfect too," right? If they're perfect with their flaws, maybe I'm perfect too with my flaws.
And yeah, that was a start.
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Sticky Habits will teach you how to do so. Please pre-order the book now and check out the special pre-order bonuses by going to stickyhabitsbook.com. That's linked for you in the show notes. I am so thrilled for this book to be out in the world. It is several years in the making, and I know it will change so much for you.
Again, go to stickyhabitsbook.com to pre-order the book now. I
love that you made that the start, though. Mm-hmm. Again, I just keep coming back to the, the choice that you've made to recognize these opportunities to shift, to notice, to accept. And, and these are kind of what I'm fondly calling nana qualities, you know? That-
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm ...
Monica Packer: I think you give to us because you are living them out yourself.
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm.
Monica Packer: And I was wondering if you could speak to our community of women who are eager to try this more, who are desperate to not feel so dark.
Diane Shiffer: Mm.
Monica Packer: Who are eager to learn how to accept themselves more. There's certain qualities I, I, I'm ... I mean, your, your book is full of them. I showed my- Mm ... how every page is almost dog-eared, you know?
To the things- Mm-hmm ... I've noticed in these qualities. There's three in particular that I would love to just touch on, if that's okay? Sure.
Diane Shiffer: Of course.
Monica Packer: And these are kind of these nana qualities that we can adopt for ourselves.
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm.
Monica Packer: The first is how you notice beauty or what, what- Mm-hmm ... role beauty plays in your life, and that seems like such a strong value.
So what would you say about that quality and how we can learn to embody that and notice it, cultivate it?
Diane Shiffer: I think, I think we have to look at things that are going to strengthen our soul, strengthen this, this ... our internal framework, right? And often those are ... We think those are gonna be, you know, like success or money or
You know, we think those are the things that are gonna bolster us. But in reality, I think they are the little valueless things. And, um, you know, and for me, I ... You know, like a, a vintage tablecloth or, um, you know, some, you know, I don't know what, like a picture of my child's drawing. I think we all would find that beautiful.
But the things ... I think the thing that I would encourage people the most is to not think, "Okay, what does this person think is beautiful, and what does that person think, or what does society at large think is beautiful?" Pay attention to yourself. Pay attention to that little lift that you get, you know?
And, you know, like my son looking at a, you know, at the, at the perfect, um, grizzled paint work on his old 1951 car is just the epitome of beauty, right? So pay attention to what it is that makes ... that you notice and that is beautiful to you. And it, you know, it doesn't have to be beautiful to anybody else.
This is just a gift you're giving to yourself.
Monica Packer: I've been trying to find this. There's so many parts here that I wanted you to read aloud, but- ... uh, one of them- Mm-hmm ... I was struck by is that the crooked stitches. Mm-hmm. You know, this old tablecloth that had all these rows and rows of the- Mm-hmm ... as a tiny cross-stitch embroidery.
Mm-hmm. And how you found the beauty in it-
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm ...
Monica Packer: was how it was imperfect.
Diane Shiffer: Yes. And I think because, um, in looking at that ... And, and the thing about that tablecloth is I actually gave it to my friend Venti as a gift- Oh, did you? ... when he visited. Yes.
Monica Packer: Yeah.
Diane Shiffer: And, um, the thing about that tablecloth that was the most remarkable was when you looked at it, when you just looked at it from a distance, it looked perfect.
Monica Packer: Hmm.
Diane Shiffer: And but then looking at it close, more closely, you could see all these little imperfections, right? And so its beauty, its perfection was not diminished by those little mistakes that the crafter had made. It, it actually elevated it, you know? Because our eye, our eye loves a little bit of imbalance, right?
Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.
Diane Shiffer: Our... And, and in life, don't we love that little, just that little bit of imbalance, right? It's, yeah, imperfection enhances perfection.
Monica Packer: So true. I mean, I don't know if you've ever seen, I think Jimmy Fallon did a series for a while- Mm-hmm ... where he would put up celebrity faces if they were symmetrical.
And
Diane Shiffer: it's- I didn't see that, but I can imagine. Yeah.
Monica Packer: It's hilarious- Yeah ... because perfect made them look so weird. Yeah. You know? So, uh, so being able to do that. And that kind of relates- Mm-hmm ... to the second quality actually, which is the grace I see you embody. Mm. The grace you give to yourself, to others, while also acknowledging when, you know, things are wrong or, and, and need to be corrected and- Mm
and, and to stand up for what's right. Mm. Uh, so it's not about pas- passivity. I'm saying that wrong. Passive, passive-
Diane Shiffer: No, that's right. Passivity- Is it? ... I think is right.
Monica Packer: Yeah. Passivity? Yeah. Okay. Passivity. Mm-hmm. Um, you talked about how you needed to unlearn being perfect.
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I-
Monica Packer: So how can we embody that?
Diane Shiffer: Uh, that's a hard one. Mm. Mm-hmm. And I think, I think especially, you know, like I said before, that my, the environment I was raised in really emphasized productivity and that kind of
Monica Packer: thing.
Diane Shiffer: Yes. And while I don't think many people have ... Well, prob- actually, probably many people do have that kind of pressure growing up.
But I think in addition to that, young people now have the pressure of social media, and so much perfection on social media, right? Like, young girls are just, I just feel so badly for them, because they are, um, just inundated with that. Mm. And how can you, you know, how can you measure up, right, to these- Mm-hmm
these artificial images? But, um, I think it goes back to, you know, being a mother and seeing my children, and being able to look at them with a realistic eye and seeing their imperfections. And like the two streams, once again, being realistic about them and their imperfections, but also how immeasurably precious they were, and how those imperfections, um, actually played up their strengths, right?
You know? Like my son that I talked about being a wild little testosterone-fueled maniac, you know, as three years old, but he was also so vibrant and so full- Mm ... of life. And, um- Um, just noticed things all the time. And now he has the most... He's incredibly successful professionally and in all ways, and that a lot of that is because of all those, those things that, you know, we might have looked at as a challenge or an imperfection when he was three.
Yeah. But yeah, he's grown into them, and they've, they've made him the person that he is, right? Without those, he wouldn't be that person.
Monica Packer: And so to give that to ourselves, I, I wanna talk about, um, or I'd, I'd actually love you to read part of your book, if that's okay. Sure. There's just this paragraph I have-
Diane Shiffer: Uh-huh
Monica Packer: on page 99, that top paragraph where it starts, "Being hard on myself." And I'm just gonna set this up briefly. What you just exemplified, how you can do that for your son, to notice, like, me being hard on him is not gonna help him in that way. Was it... Yep. It's not gonna help him be the person he can be.
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm.
Monica Packer: But how you have learned to do that for yourself, too, because so many people think the only way I change is if I'm mean to myself.
Diane Shiffer: Yep. Oh, 100%. Mm-hmm.
Monica Packer: This paragraph really shows how you do that for yourself and why. So do you mind reading that for us?
Diane Shiffer: Sure. "Being hard on myself didn't make me better.
It made me bitter. It made me brittle. It made me less available to others, not more. It wasn't until I learned to forgive myself that I could really extend that forgiveness to anyone else. When I reminded myself of my strengths, those strengths grew. When I let myself rest, I had the energy to care, and when I treated myself with gentleness, I became gentle."
Monica Packer: Oh, I just love your words- Oh ... so, so much. So that inner grace you have found- Mm-hmm ... you know, I, I see this, uh, uh, how you're doing this when you're, uh, trying to prioritize going on your walks-
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm ...
Monica Packer: and how there's been times where it just slips away, or maybe you don't feel like it.
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm.
Monica Packer: But how giving yourself grace is what's helped you-
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm
Monica Packer: be able to prioritize that more- Mm-hmm ... and more consistently, which is actually something I talk about with our community because I'm a- Mm-hmm ... habits coach, too, but- ... in a gentle way. I could
Diane Shiffer: use your help.
Monica Packer: No, you're, you're actually doing it the way I teach. Oh. It's about- Oh ... the gentleness and, and- Mm-hmm
the grace and compassion and, and giving yourself that flexibility. So I was just wondering with that, like, when there are parts of yourself- Mm-hmm ... that you know I need to push myself- Mm-hmm ... or I need to, I need to do this even I, even though I don't feel like it-
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm ...
Monica Packer: how has the kindness to yourself helped you do that better?
Diane Shiffer: You know, I honestly think it's more of a- This will sound paradoxical, but it's, it's more if you focus on productivity, okay? And that doesn't sound like it'll make sense, but when you think, like what I wrote in there saying, "When I was hard on myself, I became bitter and brittle." And so think about what is my end goal?
Is my end goal to beat myself up? You know, to punish myself for not being this perfect person that I wish I was? Is that my end goal? Because if that's your end goal, then punishing yourself and being mean to yourself, that's, that's the avenue to take, right? Or is my end goal to become a better person, a healthier person, a kinder person?
And if those are truly your end goals, then you need to give yourself grace, and you need to allow yourself to just breathe, right? And y- you know, uh, I mean, when we are hard on ourselves, we become more anxious and depressed and all those things. We don't become a better person. It just, it just fuels all that anxiety, right?
Monica Packer: Mm.
Diane Shiffer: Yeah.
Monica Packer: That's very true. Um, well, I think everyone should go look at your page and see how you do that for yourself, and how you go on your walks around the driveway, and give yourself the moments to notice the beauty in the flowers or the snow on the car or anything like that, too. The final Nana quality I wanted to mention is the, is how you prioritize rest, how you value it- Mm
how you make it part of your life. Mm. For those who are our productivity bent, um, aficionados- Mm-hmm ... or who were raised like you were and like I was too- Mm-hmm ... about it being about the, what you were able to get done in a day-
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm ...
Monica Packer: what, how can they see rest differently?
Diane Shiffer: I think the important thing is to see rest and grace to yourself in all those kind of things as the things that empower you to create, empower you to be productive, right?
I was just thinking the other day actually about how, um, sometimes folks will see, like me taking a nap or something like that, and they are like, "Oh, it must be nice," you know, that kind of thing. And, um, I think about how when I have allowed myself and given myself so much grace, like I allow myself to take naps, I allow myself to, you know, um, spend time sitting and staring.
I allow myself to spend time ironing my linens, things like that that are meaningful to me but maybe not productive in the, in the overall sense. As I have- allowed myself more of that, I've actually become more successful, successful in a worldly sense as well.
Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.
Diane Shiffer: You know? And it's not something that I thought, "Okay, I'm gonna let myself rest so that I can do X, Y, Z."
It was like, "I'm going to allow myself to rest because I need to rest." But when you are kind to yourself and you give yourself grace, then those things within you, you have the energy to be productive. You have the mental and emotional space to be creative, and, um, you're not expending all of your energy on some fruitless self-punishing sort of treadmill, right?
Monica Packer: Mm-hmm. Yeah, even if we look at it practically, right? Yes. You can't pour from an empty cup.
Diane Shiffer: Exactly.
Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.
Diane Shiffer: And I think especially as moms, we need to look at it practically, right? Because we have all of these demands on our time. There's always somebody who needs us. There's always something that needs doing.
Mm-hmm. There's always something that's dusty or s- dishes or laundry or work emails, right? There are always going to be those things. And so I think for us as women that have been programmed the way that we've been programmed, that allowing ourselves to think of it as an asset to productivity instead of a drain from productivity is the way that we really can lean in without shame, right?
Monica Packer: Mm-hmm.
Diane Shiffer: Yeah.
Monica Packer: This has been so beautiful.
Diane Shiffer: Well-
Monica Packer: We, we always end with a couple standard questions. But before- Mm-hmm ... we do those, Diane, I, my favorite chapter was the one about Millen, and Your Worth is Infinite is the title- Mm ... for those who are getting this book.
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm.
Monica Packer: While you d- you know, we don't have time for you to read that full chapter, I just wanna point people to it.
Um, and it goes with what you just shared. So maybe the, the last three paragraphs of what you say in that chapter. It's page 138, when you start with Millen. Um-
Diane Shiffer: I hope I can read it without crying because- Oh, my goodness. That is, um... When I was reading that in the audiobook, we had to record it several times because I- Wow
I
Monica Packer: was
Diane Shiffer: crying. Yeah, yeah.
Monica Packer: Well, I cried in public while I was reading this. Oh. Which is a very- Mm ... big deal for me. I'm not a crier. So-
Diane Shiffer: Yeah ...
Monica Packer: I, I wanted to end with you reading this because I think it, it encompasses everything that you have taught us today.
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm.
Monica Packer: And it's an excellent way for us to try to live out what you see in your daughter, and how you've done that for yourself, too.
Diane Shiffer: Mm-hmm. She has been such a, such an example to me, and such a wonderful teacher. She is a constant teacher to me. Mm-hmm. And I, I dedicated the book to her.
Monica Packer: Yes. And I- I noticed that. Yeah. Yeah. And for context too, that Milan, uh, you know, has Down syndrome, so- Yes. Mm-hmm ... I think that's part of the context of this chapter.
Mm-hmm. How do you actually pronounce her name?
Diane Shiffer: Milan. Milan. It's, it, it's an Ethiopian name. I'm, you don't, I'm sure you don't wanna add all this, but her name- No, I do. Okay. Her, the, her name has a wonderful story because- Yes ... um, her parents were Ethiopian, and, um, wonderful, dear people, right? But when she was born with Down syndrome, they were, it w- they were completely blindsided, and they did not feel that they could ever, like, return to Ethiopia or anything like that.
And so they chose to entrust her, is what is actually on our adoption thing is it's an entrustment. And, um, they were very specific about the kind of people that they wanted to place her with, and one of the requirements was we had to speak with them at length on the phone, and we had to meet them. And during that contact, um, I asked, they had chosen to name her Milan, and I asked if they would mind if I kept that name because it was so beautiful, and I asked what it meant.
And her birth father said that it means precious, and that he had had a dream while, um, before she was born, that she was going to be a girl, and that she was going to be precious, and she was going to be a gift. And when she was born, they felt that that dream was, you know, inaccurate. But I cannot tell you how accurate that dream was, right?
Mm. Because she was a gift to us, and she's a gift to the world. I mean, literally everybody that knows her will say how precious she is, without knowing that's what her name actually means. And, um, yeah, she's, she's a miracle.
Monica Packer: I, I have two nieces with Down syndrome, so that's partly why- Oh my goodness ...
Diane Shiffer: that
Monica Packer: chapter meant so much to me.
Mm-hmm. So thank you. Um, let's have you read that excerpt. "
Diane Shiffer: Milan doesn't measure her days by productivity. She measures them by joy, by kindness, by connection, and in doing so, she has reminded me again and again that those are the true measures of a life well-lived. It doesn't matter if she ever accomplishes anything because she's worth everything.
You are not valuable because of what you achieve. You're not worthy only when you succeed. You are valuable because you exist, because you love, because you are. And if no one has told you lately, your worth is infinite just as you are."
Monica Packer: The best note to end on. Diane, if people want to learn more from you, get the book, where should they go?
Diane Shiffer: The book is available at any bookstore, right? And I would love it if they'd check out my social media. So that, that is where I think my... You know, I f- I feel like I make true connections and really bond with people. And, um, yeah. I'm so honored by people that choose to, you know, read and watch what I create.
I mean, it's, it's, it's the greatest gift of my life, truly.
Monica Packer: Um, and what's the name of your handle, just for people to-
Diane Shiffer: Um, @schifferdiane. And then also on TikTok, I'm Your Chubby Vintage Nana, but it... You'll find me by Schiffer Diane as well. We'll link to that. And if you just do a Google search for Diane Schiffer, it, all the, all the, um, media should come up.
Monica Packer: Okay. We'll link to all those things. Diane- Yeah ... we always end with the f- the, the same final question, and it's, what is one small way listeners can take action on what they learned today?
Diane Shiffer: I think by paying attention to themselves, paying attention and listening to, uh, noticing the things that lift them, that give them li- that little lift, and, uh, and leaning in.
Monica Packer: That's so beautiful. Diane, your book truly is one of the f- the most beautiful books I've ever, ever read. I have my copy here for everyone to see, just dog-eared to death. It's, it's gorgeously written, and it's so you. And, um, it came at the right time for me, and I know it's gonna come at the right time for my community.
I'm so honored that you spent time with us today. Thank you very much for coming on About Progress.
Diane Shiffer: Well, I am honored. I'm truly honored, and I thank you. Thank you for your wonderful questions, too.
Monica Packer: Well, that was so, so amazing, Diane.
I hope this episode gave you the hug and kick in the pants you need to grow. I'll now share the progress pointers. These are the notes that I take so you don't have to, and those on my newsletter get them in the graphic form each week. You can sign up at aboutprogress.com, and what I share in the email is an expanded version of what you will hear right now.
Number one, joy isn't something you wait for. It's something you practice. Number two, small joys aren't trivial. They're what sustain you. Number three, you can feel joy and struggle at the same time. Number four, being hard on yourself doesn't help you grow. Grace does. Number five, rest and joy are not distractions from productivity.
They fuel it. Your do something challenge this week is to take Diane's advice and to start noticing and listening to yourself. Notice those small moments that actually feel like joy to you. And then you can work on cultivating it more. I highly encourage you to pick up Diane's book, The Smallest of Joys.
It is so beautiful. One of my top reads of 2026 and probably of ever. And it also reminds me of another book that I really love and I've interviewed the author of, and it's Tanmeet Sethi. Her book is Joy is My Justice. And I've linked the episode I recorded with her in the show notes if you're interested in expanding on this idea, but in a different way.
This podcast is listener supported. Members of the Supporters Club make my work with About Progress free and available to all without additional ads and putting About Progress behind a paywall. We would love to have you join the Supporters Club by going to aboutprogress.com slash support to get access of three levels of exclusive benefits from more time to more content with me, including my private premium podcast, More Personal, where I lean into the personal side of personal development.
You can always support the show for free. The best way to do that is word of mouth. Share this episode with someone who you know it will brighten their day and give them the lift that they need. Copy the URL that you see in your podcast app and text them right now. Thank you so much for listening. Now go and do something with what you learned today.
And, um
Diane Shiffer: You know what? Do you want to ask me? I didn't want to interrupt. There's somebody working on the house and they're sanding, so
Monica Packer: It's all part of it.
Diane Shiffer: So, um, and